Just be aware this gunsmith recently pulled some very shady business practices. As with other threads have pointed out-- this is only one side of the story-- but-- if anyone has considered doing business with them-- be very careful and get as much in writing as possible!!

Details will follow as soon as .257 Wraith returns from Seattle......

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Just be aware this gunsmith recently pulled some very shady business practices. As with other threads have pointed out-- this is only one side of the story-- but-- if anyone has considered doing business with them-- be very careful and get as much in writing as possible!!

Details will follow as soon as .257 Wraith returns from Seattle......

Did he pull these shady business practices with you personally, or is this something you've heard or read second hand?

My hunting partner (who is a member here also- .257 Wraith), just called me when he went to pick up a rifle that the gunsmith had for 18 months before he even started on, and then my partner moved here to Idaho and could not get back over to get it in Seattle until today-- gunsmith wanted to charge $1200 in storage fees.

Its a long story (I realize when customers drop off a gun and then don't pick it up-- they SHOULD pay storage-- its a business) however, the first 18 months were the gunsmiths fault (which they readily admit)

No signed contract, nothing on claim check about storage etc.

As I mentioned 257 Wraith will provide full details....

IV

$1200.00 storage fees? Hopefully the gunsmith fed and watered it regularly for that amount.

Here it is in a nutshell:

257 Wraith dropped off rifle to have work done and agreed price was $625.

After 12 months of waiting, Wraith called to check status on firearm, gun shop would not tell him where it was or what status was.

Wraith called ATF and they instructed him to demand that they produce the rifle or a slip that showed which FFL holder had the weapon (they subsequently claimed they sent it to a barrelmaker)

Gunsmith finally produced rifle and claimed it would be ready soon-- asked Wraith to pay, he said no-- I will give you $100 deposit. They agreed. Wraith then made 2 more payments of $100 over the next year! Still, rifle not done!

In June of 2005 rifle was finally done.

Wraith not made aware rifle was done until November of 2005 when he called them. At this time he told them he would be over in Seattle in January and would pick up. He let them know he was not happy that this took nearly 3 years to complete.

Today, Wraith arrived to pick up the rifle and was told $1200 in storage. He refused and eventually paid $350 in storage.

As you can see from the claim check-- the gunsmith had the opportunity to remove any doubt about storage fees and left this part blank.

I hope anyone who reads this passes this along to any and all who may do business with CHAMPION ARMS in KENT, WASHINGTON.

BE VERY CAUTIOUS!!!!!!!

Why did your friend take it there? There are many fine gunsmiths in the Sea-Tac area.

Were they recommended?

I took the rifle there because I saw some of his work, it looked good. The barrels were called "Champion Arms Barrels" I was under the impression that he made his own barrels, he did not, he farmed out the work. I found this out and asked for my rifle back immediately and he refused and refused to tell me the name of the barrel maker who had the rifle.
When i have more time, I,ll give you the whole story...

What the fuck are you paying $625.00 for to be done on a 77/22 anyway. IMO, No cheap ruger is worth spending that kind of money on. Do not get me wrong, I own/like ruger. I just sent them a MKIII .22 target. I told them I did not like the trigger pull, grips or the front sight. They are putting Cocobolo thumbrest grips, fiber optic front sight, And reducing the trigger to 2.5 lbs, for the price of me shipping it to them. Well, Sounds kinda shitty/shady....give him some incentive......Good luck, I hate rip-offs. -Ben

someone made the smith angry. i would not let someone keep an anvil of mine for three years, much less a rifle. that does not sound right. it is my understanding that retailers cannot charge storage until after a job is done and notice is given to the consumer. what the heck, did the smith charge $25.00 per day like car dealers? sounds like there are some hurt feelings on both sides we are not hearing about, especially if the owner of the firearm was willing to pay $325 in storage fees.

Quite a bit of work was done, stainless, fluted, muzzle-brake and threading the action/barrel.

Wraith and I have been friends for a long time, this is a guy who routinely spends $3000-$5000 per year on firearms, modifications etc. Luckily a gunsmith over here in Idaho who has done him right so far will continue to realize the financial benefits of performing services for Writh (I realize that many on here spend way more-- but remember we're college students...)

Yes, their were bad feelings when Wraith had to involve the ATF awhile back. This gunsmith kept trying the old "Hey, were tight, right? were pals, don't worry, you'll have your gun soon--my word is good" routine.

As far as agreeing to pay the extra $350-- driving from Moscow, Idaho to Seattle in January is about 6 hours (crossing Snoqualmie pass) and a lot of gas!

When things like this go bad (as we all know they sometimes can) we as a society go back to what is in writing and present our cases in front of a court of law. In this case (as posted above) their is no written agreement by Wraith to pay ANY storage fees. I think what they did is fraudulent and borderline extortion. The gunsmith knew he had Wraith over a barrel since he now lives 300+ miles and 6 hours away......

IV

i know exactly where that operation is, for starters they looked like a very shady set up,and i would never,ever take any of my firearms to a smith that has his business in a strip mall next to a donut shop and a pizza parlor, i 've been in wraith's position and it is no fun! in fact i drove by that strip mall and i didn't see champions sign anymore.

They recently moved from Fife, WA to Kent, WA-- thats why the receipt has a Fife, WA stamping on the back.

That's what kind of sucks, is that Wraith is willing to give people a shot at earning his business-- he is never out to screw anybody-- then these jerks demnad storage fees or he come home without a rifle after 12 hours of driving.

Pretty shitty way to treat a Gulf War veteran.... (or anybody for that matter....)

IV

That's a sad story. Unfortunately there are shysters out there. I have had a dispute going with MGArms for several months now regarding a $2800 custom rifle that looked like it was an apprentices' first project. I sent the rifle back the first week of November and thought we had the problem resolved, but discovered yesterday it wasn't. So far the guy has refused to take my phone calls, answer 2 emails, or respond to the letter I sent when I returned the rifle for refund. My credit card company informed me yesterday that the matter is, in fact, not settled, so I made another call and sent another email, that have both gone unanswered so far. There don't seem to be many options left.

Luckily, the work appears to be good on this deal. Wraith is very happy with it (cosmetically-- we'll see if it shoots)

Its really shitty when a dispute isn't even about the rifle itself, I mean, a gunsmith needs to get paid for his time and if he does shitty work, well-- its harder for him to back down. But on something like this? With nothing in writing about storage??

I hope when this ends up in court soon that I am able to post a happy ending and Wraith gets his $350 refunded to him and Champion Arms quits trying to screw folks.....

Best of luck with your deal cobrad....

IV

What was interresting was I had him work on my 1911, extended mag well, lower and flare the ejection port and anbi safety. The work was good. I had him glass bed a rifle, it was a little slow, however I did give it to him before hunting season. I even had a friend give him a rifle for a trigger job and muzzle brake. No real problems.
When I spoke to the ATF I just wnated information on how to get my rifle back. I didn't care if it was in pieces; after all it is a 77/22 VMBZ (.22mag.). The agent told me he had to produce documentation as to the whereabouts and who was doing the work, etc. She even told me it was probably at olympic Arms in lacey. Then i really wanted it back.
The reason why I had the workd done in the first place, it didn't shoot well and after researching that cartridge, the only way to get it to shoot wasa to rebarrel and thread the action.
So he was all over recommending his line of barrels, then there was flutting, trigger work fitting, extended mag release, muzzle brake, (to stabalize the exit gas) Back then I did not know what I know now.
When i made the payment prior to today everyone was all smiles and knew when I would return with the balance, I even called him three times last week to reminde him, no one word was spoken about any storage fees.
He justified his actions by telling me about his rent and power bill, paying the barrelmaker who he probably pissed off in the first place and that made him drag his feet on my barrel(that is speculation). He told me I had abandoned the rifle and that he has everyright to sell it(even though we had an agreement and I had paid for nearly half of the work done)
Hell when it was finally done I had the opportunity to test fire it in his bullet trap...the extractor did not function. I asked him to fix it he said he would. I then asked him on several occasions if it was fixed and he would never acknowldege.
Remember: experience is what you get when you don't get whay you want...

quote:

I have had a dispute going with MGArms for several months

Good luck. They will never touch metal on one of my rifles again. Kerry does very little if any work anymore. It is his "assistants" that do the work. I took a brand new highly polished barreled action in to have the barrel shortened. They ended up scratching the barrel. (yep it happens). They choose not to tell me and after I got it home and saw it had been reblued they said that "some people are just never happy and he had lost money doing a full reblue". I said I was upset because he tried to hide it not the damage. I heard nothing back from him. So me must have plenty of customers so he doesn't need me.

To begin with, I WOULD NEVER leave a rifle with a smith w/o a reasonable window of when the work was gonna be finished.
Why would he send the action to a barrel maker? Its not supposed to work that way. The guy sounds like a "jobber" that just farms the work out to others and adds a whopping profit for himself on top of the other's charges.

"too soon old; too late smart"

257 Wraith
In Washington, a gunsmith can sell a firearm only under certain conditions. Once the work is done and the owner has been notified, he has a certain amount of time to pick the gun up or pay and arrange for shipping. If the owner does not comply then the gunsmith has to notify him in writing that he will sell it if not picked up. I believe he has something like 60 days after that to comply. If it is not done then the smith can sell the gun but any money beyond the bill has to be returned to the owner.

Just curious, when was this gone completed? He can not sell it if he just takes forever and a day to get it done. That is his problem not yours, nor is his power bill, rent etc. That is all factored into his bill in the first place.

You can file in small claims court here for up to $1500 and it only costs somewhere around $50 which can be recovered. Neiher of you can be represented in court by an attorney so that makes it a lot cheaper. I am not sure but you might be able to file in Eastern Washington, savign you some travel time. Collecting after small claims is another matter. The court decree, if you win, just gives you a tool to go after him. You can then put a lean on stuff, and possibly force a sheriffs sale of his assets. That would have to hurt.

Okay, I just scrolled up and saw it was done in June of 2005. He has to notify you that it was done then, divine guidance and esp are not part of the process.

Thanks for the information. I just about took a gun to them not long ago. The project was still in the air. There are several other good gunsmiths in the area. No reason to take this risk with my gun and money.

Hey Jay,
What work were you going to have done? I'm curious as to what you told him...
As far as a good smith in your area cantact Brett Evans of Northwest Armswerks. He is in Bonney Lake. He builds a lot of sniper, long range riges for Ft. Lewis and several Police agencies. He does everything to winning Benchrest rifles.
Take a look at Champion Arms' work order slips. They still don't list anything about any storage fees. After this incident transpired and I piad more money I asked the clerk to point out the posted sign stating storage fees for completed work, his response was:
"I don't have to post anything..."
Yep

Hopefully, more in the Seattle area will read and steer clear of this establishment.....

IV

quote:

Originally posted by cobrad:
That's a sad story. Unfortunately there are shysters out there. I have had a dispute going with MGArms for several months now regarding a $2800 custom rifle that looked like it was an apprentices' first project. I sent the rifle back the first week of November and thought we had the problem resolved, but discovered yesterday it wasn't. So far the guy has refused to take my phone calls, answer 2 emails, or respond to the letter I sent when I returned the rifle for refund. My credit card company informed me yesterday that the matter is, in fact, not settled, so I made another call and sent another email, that have both gone unanswered so far. There don't seem to be many options left.

Seven words for you: invlove the State Attorney General and BATF.

Brett Evans has built two guns for me and they are both very accurate, his shop is spotless.he's one of the best gun builders i have dealt with. also Russ Haydon of Russ Haydon's shooter supply builds a very accurate rifle he built me a7mm-08 that shoots 3/8 @ 100 with factory ammo, i can't wait to see what it'll do with reloads.

quote:

Originally posted by 257 Wraith:
Hey Jay,
What work were you going to have done? I'm curious as to what you told him...
As far as a good smith in your area cantact Brett Evans of Northwest Armswerks. He is in Bonney Lake. He builds a lot of sniper, long range riges for Ft. Lewis and several Police agencies. He does everything to winning Benchrest rifles.
Take a look at Champion Arms' work order slips. They still don't list anything about any storage fees. After this incident transpired and I piad more money I asked the clerk to point out the posted sign stating storage fees for completed work, his response was:
"I don't have to post anything..."
Yep

257 Wraith

I was going to have him build me a hunting rifle off a Winchester action I had.
But I went with another Gunsmith east of Kent named Mike Palazzo. He built me a super rifle on my action. Mike is a real perfectionist.

If you follow Precession Shooting you may have read about Mike and his 300 Gonzo. It’s a 338 Lapua necked down to 300.

Thanks for the information on the other gunsmith I’ll keep it in mind.

Just trying to help...

Thanks HP, I hadn't thought of that. I sent a certified letter off today to MGA asking them to please respond so we can reach a solution. If (when) I don't hear from them in the next week or so, I'll try the state attorney general. I can't believe this joker won't at least contact me. MGA is supposedly a reputable business.

I would imagine no one wants to hear from the BATF either.......

IV

quote:

Originally posted by cobrad:
That's a sad story. Unfortunately there are shysters out there. I have had a dispute going with MGArms for several months now regarding a $2800 custom rifle that looked like it was an apprentices' first project. I sent the rifle back the first week of November and thought we had the problem resolved, but discovered yesterday it wasn't. So far the guy has refused to take my phone calls, answer 2 emails, or respond to the letter I sent when I returned the rifle for refund. My credit card company informed me yesterday that the matter is, in fact, not settled, so I made another call and sent another email, that have both gone unanswered so far. There don't seem to be many options left.

registered letter...

make certain that kary's current business name matches the one you sent the money to.

I would have the CC cancel the bill as goods undelivered/improperly worked on

and never ever call them again...

heard a story once that a gun went in for 4 months to be rebarreled and stocked

came out.. had a problem

"sure, we'll fix it.... wait time is now 6 months"....

that is, that's the time it would take to get a new rifle if you placed the order that day.

jeffe

I've already gone the credit card route. They posted the funds to my account a month ago, but a couple of days ago I discovered they had been reapplied. I called and got the typical bureaucratic runaround BS, and the third guy I spoke with said that apparantly MGA has asked for the opinion of another qualified gunsmith, and that if I don't resubmit all the info that I already submitted by 1/30/06, the dispute will be closed and considered settled. It's just bull shit all around with this deal.

Call your CC back, explain that my O'Day hasn't returned your repaired gun, and you want to reopen.

There's plenty of gunsmiths in Houston to inspect... but I would have a few that I would suggest, in a PM, to counter review...

jeffe

The BATF told me that they are not interested in gun rip offs.

But I sure get good results when the local vice squad detective visits a store and asks to see the paper work.

It looks like Champion Arms is a few blocks North of Boeing surplus, near Harbor Freight.
I'm sure the Kent police could find it.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
The BATF told me that they are not interested in gun rip offs.

But I sure get good results when the local vice squad detective visits a store and asks to see the paper work.

It looks like Champion Arms is a few blocks North of Boeing surplus, near Harbor Freight.
I'm sure the Kent police could find it.

That's where I would start...either the Kent PD or the County Sheriff's Office....tell them you want to know how to file a theft report. ("Theft by conversion.")

I went through this once with the fellow who got Bliss Titus' barrel-making firm after Bliss died. I had a brand new in-the-white Belgian-made magnum mauser action there for barreling to .458 Winchester, when Bliss passed on.

For a couple of years I tried calling/writing to the new owner, first hoping to know about when my gun might be done, later about just getting my action back. NEVER could reach him by phone OR get any answer by mail. As I was still living in Alberta at the time, finally I authorized John Jobson (the then Camping Editor of Sports Afield) to act as my agent. He went to the Sheriff's Office in the Ogden area to report it as a theft. They sent a Deputy with Jobson to the ex-Titus firm's shop and gave the new (then) proprietor the option of jail or returning the action. I had the action back tuite suite.

hey Alberta Canuck, could you elaborate on "theft by Conversion"?

Basically, it is theft by using another's property for one's own purposes, where it was originally in the "thief's" possession or control with the rightful owner's permission, but where the "thief" has now sort of "commandeered" it to his/her own purposes, thus depriving the rightful owner of it or its products.

Some PDs don't like to get involved in that sort of thing, which is why I suggested "asking" them how to file such a complaint. They'll soon give you an inkling of their view on it.

IF the polezei defer from acting, then I suggest spending maybe $40 to have a local lawyer write a letter hinting at such charges and strongly requesting the return of the firearm. If both those fail, then I'd suggest you have a phone conversation with the District Attorney of the appropriate Washington county.

The Federal Trade Commission also has the authority to take action against any U.S.located vendor who keeps an interstate or international customer's money more than 30 days without delivering the ordered goods (unless they have a provable contractual agreement to a specified longer delivery window).

According to FTC regulations, if the seller cannot deliver within 30 days, they HAVE to give the customer written notice that the customer has the right to opt between the return of their money or accepting a later date of delivery (often called a "backorder" in routine commercial sales). If the customer opts for the money, it must be promptly returned.

Usually, if the FTC decides to pursue settlement of such a complaint, they pressure the defendant (supplier) by asking him to send the FTC photocopies of ALL his orders received for the past two or three years, together with copies of documents showing how and when each order was filled. If a pattern of violations is found, then further action can and often will be taken. But, the thought of having to provide all that paper for perusal by the feds (who may decide to pass it on to the IRS) is usually sufficient to encourage action by the supplier to make the customer happy.

(I know of this power because I once had occasion to use it too...over a knife I had ordered & paid for through the mail but which did not arrive despite my numerous inquiries. The FTC got on THAT company like flies on a barnyard pile...I got my knife QUICKLY.)

Very Interresting...However; in my case I did in fact receive my firearm back, years later but the dealer decided to charge me a storage fee or he was going to sell it. If you look at the begenning of this thread, you can get a better understanding.
I did contact the Kent Police dept., they told me it was a legal matter.

So, basically, you decided you would prefer to pay the storage fees rather than go through the hassle over the rifle. Could have been a wise decision, depending on your "hassle-tolerance" threshold. I often make similar decisions.

Anyway, as you have already paid the amount, then I doubt you have a very strong legal leg to stand on as to collecting any of it back.

Very similar to one's monthly credit card bill...if one has a disputed item charged to them, the time to raise the dispute is BEFORE paying the credit card company, not after.

Thanks for the "head's up" on Champion Arms of Kent, Washington.

The injured party ought to send these posts to the ripper-offer...

Wouldn't that be interesting? I doubt they would even respond or care.

But, maybe they would?

Lets try and find out!

IV

257 Wraith, you still have a very viable case in small claims court. Having paid the storage fees does not diminish that in the least. They would not give you the gun unless you paid the fee. You go to court for the cost of the the storage fee. You can also regain your filing fee. It is not a difficult matter but that will not automatically get you the money.

I would not notify them of this thread until you took them to court if you are going to pursue that. It can not help you in court.

Yes, I'm going to take them to small calims court. The gunsmith told me quite frankly that if I did not pay the fees he WOULD sell my rifle.
I was not sure of my legal rights at that time so I just wanted to secure my personal property and deal with this asshole after my property was out of jeopardy.
Customestox, I would not ask you to help me in court. I value the information given from all of you and would not ask that you involve your business/company in my battle with that other company.