I suppose this is as good a place to post this as any. Given the present tribulations of the economy and the gun industry in particular, I've often wondered how things may have been different if innovators such as Art Alphin might have impacted the scene if he'd received better reception. Many of us remember the BATFE raid that if I recall he was largely absolved of wrong doing. The impact fighting it (at least in part) had on the company, the SAAMI snub concerning the 6.5-08 / 260 Rem...

By comparison thirty or so years earlier things seem to have fallen in place for a similar innovator, Bill Ruger. Given Alphin's background in military ballistics and big game hunting, IF he'd been similarly lucky would we have another major gun company in the states? I know some here have commented negatively concerning Art on a personal level but I'm interested in thoughts on him and his company in regard to (potential) impact on the industry rather than any personality issues.

I've never met the man and know only what I've read over the years. From that alone he seems like one of the over-looked nuggets of the business we're all poorer for not having better exposure to. My own personal opinion mind you.

I think part of it was Art Alphin's attitude. I talked to him at length several years ago and the impression I got from him was that he was absolutely right 110 percent of the time and that anyone who didn't agree with him was a blithering idiot.
I also know that in recent years he had some real problems with delivery of items he sold.
I don't think things really "fell in place" for Bill Ruger, I think he was a brilliant inventor and very smart business man. Art Alphin just took what was available, changed it slightly and then put his name on it expecting all the accolades.
His 500 A-Square was nothing more than a slightly modified 510 Wells Express from several years earlier. I handled a bunch of his big bore rifles and although the stock did seem to cut down recoil, it was butt ugly! Also he uses 1917 Enfield actions with very little customizing done on them, and charges what I think is an outrageous amount for them. For what he charges, look into what AHR can offer you.
All this aside, it still boils down to his attitude toward and treatment of customers. Just my humble opinion.

A search on this site will reveal some of the reasons Alphin is held in low regard.

Non-delivery of paid-for items and failure to stand behind his products are just the most egregious reasons.

George

Art was an a$$

Bill was personable

Ruger is currently owned by stockholders, NOT the ruger family, and its improvements over the last 2 years...

Steve Hornady is a pretty cool guy, and "gets" it, with the 450 marlin, the 458 lott, 17 HMR, 376 steyr, 375 Ruger, 416 Ruger, 480 ruger, all the old school cases...

If Art hadn't been ART, then AA would be hornady.

Fellas I'm just fishing, only going by limited bits and pieces of info over the years and NO personal knowledge. I may well be dead wrong and this is purely speculation... What I'm getting at is that Alphin suffered some setbacks early on. Yes his products are relatively limited to the one family of rifles and some - realatively odd-ball by mainstream standards - ammo. But then Ruger started out with a simple .22RF pistol that probably sold more at the time because it looked like a Luger than because it was good (and it WAS and still IS good).

Now IF Alphin's initial products had been similarly successful would we have seen some additional development as we did with Ruger? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. Personalities asside, he does seem like a very interesting individual in this limited field. Jeffeosso's comparison to Hornady is good. Yes they have been a trustworthy, innovative and admirable company. Point well taken! As for the A-Square rifles being ugly, yeah that they are but then the idea is function right? Maybe that was the difference, Ruger designed function AND appearance while Alphin thought function outweighted looks.

My speculation is about the early days of A-Square, anyone with knowledge of the same sort of customer service issues back then or is this a result of the business troubles that came later? Just trying to make conversation not pick a fight fellas!

BTW - from the beating that one of Saeed's takes in all the videos, Alphins rifles are obviously tough if nothing else!

quote:

My speculation is about the early days of A-Square, anyone with knowledge of the same sort of customer service issues back then or is this a result of the business troubles that came later?

No, Lightweight Arty's problems started from the beginning and caught up with him. Had he invented something truly revolutionary, it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest. The guy can make an enemy out of a fence post, and he's notorious for it. Nastiest jerk I've ever had the misfortune to do business with.

400nitro, don't hold back beau, say what you feel.


OK then, seems the jury is in and as I said, guess I was dead wrong. Thanks for the insight fellas!

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
The guy can make an enemy out of a fence post, and he's notorious for it.

The fence post (or a piano leg) was AA's inspiration for his CoilChek stock.


oupa,

AA's products didn't catch on because he didn't offer anything big game hunters HAD to have at a price they were willing to pay.

$3000 or more for a reworked military action bolted to a piano leg? I don't think so.

George

Bill Ruger invented and produced, Art re-hashed! Although I agree Jeffeoso on the ammo statement.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
No, Lightweight Arty's problems started from the beginning and caught up with him. Had he invented something truly revolutionary, it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest. The guy can make an enemy out of a fence post, and he's notorious for it. Nastiest jerk I've ever had the misfortune to do business with.

What were your dealings with Art that led to this?

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
No, Lightweight Arty's problems started from the beginning and caught up with him. Had he invented something truly revolutionary, it wouldn't have mattered in the slightest. The guy can make an enemy out of a fence post, and he's notorious for it. Nastiest jerk I've ever had the misfortune to do business with.

What were your dealings with Art that led to this?

I once HAD to have some factory ammo for a rifle I was buying. At the time, the caliber was only available from A-Square, so I ordered a couple boxes. Afterwards, asking for nothing, I wrote them a letter to let them know of a few issues I had observed with the ammo that I thought they might like to know about:

1. When touched on the nose with a finger, the bullets fell inside the cases.

2. Bullets were the wrong diameter.

3. Bullet weights all over the place. I'm not talking about variances of 1 or 2 grains.

4. Rim thickness (flanged cartridge) was well below spec, creating excessive head space. Some cases had incipient head separations after the first firing.

5. No headstamp of any kind.

Arty wrote a letter back threatening to sue me. I've chanced to meet him a couple times since then. Like I said, he's one of the nastiest people I've ever met.