The pictures on the Kimber 84 fit and finish prompted me to post this rather than hijack the other thread.

I had not been in a retail gun shop for years until about 3 weeks ago. This was a large retail store with all the major rifle makers present. I decided to have a closer look and see how much things had changed.

Overall I was generally disgusted. Especially in the stock department. The Win, Rem, Sav, stocks were incredibly sloppy, laser checkering which looks funny in my opinion and there was hardly any finish on the wood.

I decided to compare the most expensive 3 rifles. A Winchester, Weatherby, and a Browning. All of these were between $900-$1200. The best stock fit, finish, and checkering was....the Weatherby. I was surprised. The stock was a good stick of claro with some nice figure in the butt. All the pores were filled and it had been checkered fairly well for a factory job. I dont even like Weatherby stocks. I never have. However, if they can produce a decent stock and keep the price competitive there is no reason the "big boys" shouldnt be able to do the same. IMHO.

So whats my point? I dunno really. Except the next time you call a custom rifle builder and he tells you he is 2 years back logged. You might understand why.

The custom rifles available today are far and above what you could get 75 years ago. The factory rifles of today are well below the grade of "yesterdays" factory rifles. Even without CNC machines or even carbide tooling, the much older factory rifles were better working machines "out of the box". I think this is because long ago most high school graduates could pretty much build or fix anything using basic tooling. Today, many of the top paid engineers can't even cut a thread or file something flat & square. Nobody has to learn the basics anymore. They all want to jump from computer design to pushing the cycle start button. If the finished part requires extra operations, then they are deemed too costly and unecessary. The final function of the rifle is the sum of all the talent and attention to detail paid to every part in it. If today's high school graduate were better trained in shop classes then the quality and function of everything they worked on would be much better. Now most high schools have sold out the machine shops and invested heavily in sports and drama because that's where most high school graduates make a living.....Right??????? If you could travel time with a factory rifle that doesn't feed and let a high school student of "yesterday" work on it, I bet he could fix it. Try doing that with one of today's kids........
gunmaker

hear hear!

Bill,
I agree ... though stock fit and finish from 99% of the factory rifles, just means some of the cost I recover when I sell it on Ebay, not only because it doesnt FIT me....

All the factory rifle stocks are single coat finished, and most are DEEPLY stained, and some are kiln dried.


Now, to be fair, let's look at COST

If a decent stocker does a stock, and a decent metal guy does the other work, you are looking at 2.5K MINIMUM for a custom build. and that's not anything like a high end rifle, though the fit and finish should be very good.

So, most guys wont (can't in some cases) afford a 2.5k rifle, and a remington does them just fine for $600 from a bigbox store. They don't see rifles like most guys on AR do, as fine instruments, they see them as tools to take 2 or 3 deer a year, and shoot a box of shells every 2 years through.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
So, most guys wont (can't in some cases) afford a 2.5k rifle
jeffe

A select few however will complain about the high prices of custom gun work while they have huge piles of over priced snapon & craftsman & dewalt tools in their own garage.
gunmaker

[/QUOTE]

A select few however will complain about the high prices of custom gun work while they have huge piles of over priced snapon & craftsman & dewalt tools in their own garage.
gunmaker[/QUOTE]

I got news, Listening to complaints about " you charge to much" is apart of doing business, and working for your self.

If the gunsmithing business is so back logged id say you are sittin pretty.

There are alot of small business owners that are hurtin for work that are effected by economic factors, and haveing a hard time puttin food on the table. At the same time there are many people that have $100 dollar bills shootin' out of their nose.

Bill,

Did you get a chance to look at the very newest of the Ruger rifles?

From what I read, they seem to be listening to the rifle loonies some.

Bill,
I'm always surprised as to the number of shooters that have no clue about filled pores, laser or computer cut checkering ot even pressed checkering.

They look at the pricetag and that's all!

I'm also surprised that some don't recognise fancy grained wood. They look but see only wood and not the beauty of the grain. Some even look at straight grained walnut and exclaim how beautiful it is!

Custom guns aren't for everyone as many of them just would never recognise the artistry in them. Forthose that do.....it's good to have folks like you that can provide the art!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Bill,
I'm always surprised as to the number of shooters that have no clue about filled pores, laser or computer cut checkering ot even pressed checkering.

They look at the pricetag and that's all!

I'm also surprised that some don't recognise fancy grained wood. They look but see only wood and not the beauty of the grain. Some even look at straight grained walnut and exclaim how beautiful it is!

Custom guns aren't for everyone as many of them just would never recognise the artistry in them. Forthose that do.....it's good to have folks like you that can provide the art!

Vapo,

I agree with everything you've said, with the exception of the straight grained wood. I am
one of those fools who think such wood is
beautiful, however, not with such attrocities as pressed checkering and poorly applied finishes.

Actually, design, fit and finish tells the tale!

P.S. And I attempt to spare the feelings of
those who cannot afford the work of good workmen. Ruger, it seems, is planning on capturing that market.

What has always disgusted me was the quality of wood that you got from manufacturers, especially Dakota! I ahve bought a few sticks through the years, and the average piece that is on the Dakota's, not the upgraded ones, generally could not have been a 50 dollar RETAIL piece, probably not more thatn $20 in the quantity they buy. Wood will sell a gun like nothing else, and a 5K factory rifle like some of the Daks ought to have at least a little figure/mineral streaking for that kind of money. I looked at several that looked for all the world like a piece of yellow oak. Does not cost any more to fit and finish a nice piece than a plain piece, just the wood price. Same with Winchester, when I looked at the African calibers, most had a nice dark piece of walnut but no figure or color. A few bucks spent by them on a upgrade would have had them moving better. Off of my soap box! Lee.

I am impressed that you found a wood stock in the rack. Notice that I did not say walnut stock. That would make my heart skip. $2500 for a custom stock and metal work is not going to happen more like $4000 after you buy a blank and action.
John

C'mon Bill. God created factory rifles to use as action donors.....

Dakota wood sucks. So what else is new.

I do have a Kimber Superamerica 22 LR, a nice rifle and worth the $2K.

I also have a Cooper Custom Classic in 22-250 Rem I'd like to say $2500. And a Cooper Western Classic in K-Hornet- this has a Turnbull case colored action and rings, octagon barrel. One sweetass single shot...I don't remember $3k maybe. These are both outstanding rifles, very accurate, nice wood, truly worth the price and wait (albeit much quicker than a custom job).

While the wood on these is Claro (beats the shit out of the lumber Dakota puts out), they are all very attractive stocks. The fit/finish is what one expects/finds in a custom rifle.

The rest of the stuff out there...well I wipe my ass with those POS.

Remember....you get what you pay for!!!!!

quote:

So whats my point? I dunno really. Except the next time you call a custom rifle builder and he tells you he is 2 years back logged. You might understand why.

Truer words were never posted.

There was a time when a man could buy a gun off the rack and trust his life to it.

Hostile enemies, dangerous animals, violent criminals, beware.

Those days are long, long gone.

While I agree the rifles of today are not as pretty as they once were. Machined parts have been replaced with cast aluminum and plastic etc.

The average off the rack rifle being built today is more accurate and durable than any of the rack iron of yesterday.

The vast majority of the actions I blue print today require very little work...the receiver faces are almost always square as are the threads.... bolt lug engagement is usually the only thing that requires much attention.

Composite stocks don't warp or "ding" easily, the finishes don't rust as easy either.

I own many fine pieces of gun art, that would cost a small fortune to buy today.... but by and large they are minute and a half to two minute of angle rifles, they require a lot of care and maintenance.

My newer ugly sticks, shoot better some much better...require very little maintenance and don't rust the first time the humidity changes.

If the American consumer would pay for it, the makers would be building them. The consumer won't pay for it (on any large scale).

Most of us "gun nuts" know what we want, know the difference between fine workmanship, art and usefullness.

99% of the other gun owners don't give a rats ass as long as it goes bang and the bullet goes where they're aiming it.

Were I in the manufacturing business, my bets would be on the 99% of the available customers, not the 1% that wouldn't be happy with whatever was produced. If I took the time to make it "pretty" put up with the rejection rate of wood stocks, polished all the metal and spent all the time in the bluing tanks to get that uber glossy finish, eveyone would be complaining about the price and the average guy would be priced out of the market for my product.

And in case no one has noticed, none of the makers are killing wall street, most of them are struggling to survive.

An example is Academy Sports recently had a sale on Remington 700s, plastic stock, matte sandblasted finish, aluminum and plastic everywhere they could put it..... $369.00

These rifles are reasonably accurate, durable and cheap. Why is Joe deer hunter going to spend $1,000 bucks or more for a rifle that does the same thing and requires more care and maintenance?

I've spent some time with a 1948 Winchester Model 70 and even more time with several 1930's M98's. IMO, I think the craftsman of my grandfather's era just had a better work ethic and cared more about the end product than most of the parts assemblers today have ever thought of.

I've managed to find a couple factory rifles with wood that I'm not too ashamed to go hunting with:







Dakota wood is overpriced. Just the "upgrade" cost of my Model 10's wood cost more than the whole Kimber rifle next too it! Fortunately I bought the whole rifle at a decent discount...................DJ

I looked at a .416 Rigby Dakota at the local gun shop and it had a magnificent looking stock especially for a big bore. The Cooper next to it was much better and a little cheaper. If you would like to see some pretty wood look at any of the Shiloh upgrades. My Hartford model came with semi-fanc that puts a lot of extra fancy ones to shame.

We live in the land of Mc Donalds and Red Lobster, not everyone can or will part with money for a fine meal, cigar, rifle, car or even a quality shirt. Most of the country are content with minute of mule deer, plastic stocks and walmart prices.

I have many wonderful factory rifles, that I enjoy every time pick them up. Of course, the youngest among them was built in the '60s.

I do recall going into Uncle Ed's Exchange in Edmonton, as a kid, and just smelling the rifles. Everything was oil finished, and the fragrance was all over the store. Those Husqvarnas and FN Sporters and Model 70 Winchesters felt warm to the touch, and were the most beautiful things my dozen-year old eyes had ever fallen upon. I swear I recall every detail of my 14th Christmas, when my gift was a brand new Husqvarna Model 3000 in .30-06. Yes, I still have it, and it's still beautiful, and I can't begin to count how many moose it's put in the freezer. And it will be beautiful as long as there's someone who cares for it.

Nowadays when I go into a gun shop I pick up what I need, and run my eye over the used rack (just in case) and leave. There isn't a factory made rifle from the last three decades that I'd walk across the street for.

i don't mind paying my hard-earned $$$ for something quality... i'm a heavy-equipment-engine mechanic by trade.... most of my tools are made and sold by a major tool mfg'r.. snap-on, mac, matco.... why??? guarantee... and more precision than harbor freight or craftman...most of my rifles are m70 winchester's... why??? i like the looks, and i can do my own trigger work.... in the next 2 yrs, i will purchase a #1h in 9.3x74r (or have it made)... a chapuis double in 9.3x74r... a searcy ph double in .470ne or 500ne, a winchester 1895 in .405 winchester...have the old 1895 win in 45-70 restore by Turnbull...and build a custom something on the 1917 endfield that i bought a couple months ago....while i have purchased factory rifles in the past, i've developed a "taste" for the better...

I took the family to KFC last night for supper. Cost ??? about 40 bucks. Another twenty I could have had a steak at Applebees across the street. Maybe a beer for desert. No not 5 star dinning but better than a greasy chicken leg, but did not stand in line.

I had guns coming out of my ears 5 years ago.They were all ok, nothing great. I figured out what I needed for the hunting and shooting I do. Pulled the doubles, triples and stuff I had not used in 5-6 years and got rid of them. I took that money and rebuilt and customized the five I have now. All have good glass and a purpose. They all shoot better than me, never a hic-up. Barrels clean in a few minutes.
Now I look at all factory rifles as platforms. Becasue for a few more bucks you can get a steak and a beer over a greasy chicken leg. My two cents on the subject.

Blueprinted, I like your analogies.

Maybe Steak and Ale instead of Applebees though?????

Regards--Don

Bill, Good post.

I make the rounds to the gun shops from time to time. I have to agree with Bill for the most part, the Abolts and Wbys seem to look the best. I looked at a Kimber a while back, this it was about 900 or so, inletting around the barrel channel was really bad, I was really suprised. I'm kind of a mauser guy, so guns like the Abolt white gold or whatever it is, is not my kind of gun with the shinny finish, but most I've seen had nice wood and fit was not bad.

I think the Rems, Wbys and etc do a real good job of trying to sell what most gun buyers going to the shops for......accuracy, the curret factory guns are pretty accurate, some very. I think a fair amount of the buyers today wouldn't know good fit and finish, but they can measure accuracy.

All that said, I'll stick with my mausers and have fun scrouging up parts and buy blanks and etc.

Some people are hunters, but don't give a darn how there rifle looks , some Guys love a prety rifle and will spend half there hunt trying not to scratch it.
As for me, i am somewhere in the middle.
I love a prety rifle but if its to prety i will let somebody else buy it, mine get dirty !
...tj3006