All,

First, thank you for the mounds of valuable information provided on this site. I have filled a notebook with details on riflesmithing. Here goes my first post and question.

My question is on bolt handle position for a hard kicking rifle. I am working on a 458 Lott on a P14 Enfield action and after much research am not sure what to do with the bolt handle. I like the dog leg look and the look of the Remington model 30. However, I have seen several folks on here mention that leaving this handle as is may result in a knuckle buster.

So where in relation to the trigger should the handle be positioned for fast handling and no damage to the shooter's knuckles?

I have looked at hundreds of photos, and several rifles for a clue, but there seems to be no consensus.

Thank you for your time and help.

Jeremy

Leave it alone, it will NOT be any problem.

I have a Rem 30S that is now a 458 Lott. I have had zero problems with the original dogleg bolt handle. The original safty is as good as it gets, to me., also.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Leave it alone, it will NOT be any problem.

I have a Rem 30S that is now a 458 Lott. I have had zero problems with the original dogleg bolt handle. The original safty is as good as it gets, to me., also.

Keith

I must respectfully disagree.

It depends upon the stock wrist shape and the shooter's hand. I, personally, find that the recoil of even the 30-06 drives the knob into my big fat finger quite painfully if I don't pay attention to how I grasp the wrist. I would suggest that you need AT LEAST a 1/2-knob-dia clearance between the knob and your skin when you snatch up the rifle and shoulder it quickly.

Let me put it another way. I'm very familiar with heavy-recoiling stoppers, my own favorite weighs 8 lbs and puts out 4000 fpe.

And I wouldn't even DREAM of shooting a 458 Lott with a dogleg bolt handle! Have been there and done that and still remember the pain.
Good luck, Joe

My 30S 458 Lott

Many different people have shot my rifle, besides myself. Not one complaint about the bolt handle hitting their hand.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Not one complaint about the bolt handle hitting their hand.

Keith

Probably because the pain of having the bolt handle hit your hand in full recoil is nothing compared to the pain of having to look at it!

Ditto what Hog Killer said, especially if you like the looks of the dog leg bolt handle. I've shot Hog Killer's rifle plenty and it does not hit my knuckles. I just bought another M30 today and have no plans to alter the bolt handle, except to tig the hole.

i've shot 700gr at 2200 fps in a so called knuckle buster stock enfield bolt .. leave it alone, as well as the safey...

one doesn't put a clased grip stock on a 458 lott.. aka, pistol grip/target grip ..

i've also shot keith's 458 lott ... as well as my own 500 AR on an enfield ... if you get cracked by the bolt handle YOU HAVE LET GO OF THE GUN.

worst time i was ever cracked by a bolt handle, i HAD let go .. on a 585 nyati, full house loads, and a 10# rifle ... i thought my hand was broken ...

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Let me put it another way. I'm very familiar with heavy-recoiling stoppers, my own favorite weighs 8 lbs and puts out 4000 fpe.

a 375 is only a big bore out of politeness .. Hogkiller's 458 is barely a pound more, and I've seen 120# ladies shoot it .. no harm

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

And I wouldn't even DREAM of shooting a 458 Lott with a dogleg bolt handle! Have been there and done that and still remember the pain.
Good luck, Joe

Joe, not for nothing, I am talking nearly DOUBLE the ME levels are you familar with.. do 700gr at 2200 fps ... it was barel 12#, and a test rig.. no hands getting smashed by it

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
a 375 is only a big bore out of politeness .. Hogkiller's 458 is barely a pound more, and I've seen 120# ladies shoot it .. no harm
Joe, not for nothing, I am talking nearly DOUBLE the ME levels are you familar with.. do 700gr at 2200 fps ... it was barel 12#, and a test rig.. no hands getting smashed by it

Undoubtedly you guys have small hands (grin).....I also get whanged by pre-64 Winchesters, even with some of the more open grips. Elmer Keith approved of moving the knob forward, he showed a Win M70 458 done this way and went on at length about how it was an improvement.

Re who can take the most recoil (kinda childish IMO and I don't even own a 375, don't know WHERE you got THAT?), I've built & owned several 8-lb 458WMs and how about a 450 Alaskan M71, 5000 fpe and 7.5 lbs? A 50-110 Ruger No 1 shooting a 650 @ 1900 from an 8-lb rifle? These are only a few I've owned & used, no big deal.

You guys can do whatever you want and pat yourselves on the back for being real he-men while you make fun of my painful results, but the guy asked for opinions and I gave mine.

Speaking plainly and practically, I would alter the bolt handle for increased shooting comfort and more pleasing looks, by moving it forward slightly.

There will be those who say that this would result in a slower second shot but I don't believe this; it kinda looks like these folks must apparently be planning to miss with their first shot(!). Perhaps they would be better-served with a double rifle, the king of all DGRs.

Or maybe they need to have their smith lap their actions 'til they work faster, it's amazing how much improvement can result. If you can't work the bolt slickly & easily with your little finger alone then IMO your rifle needs work!

For anyone to make a flat statement that the knob won't hurt the shooter is ridiculous, it all depends upon the dimensions of the stock's wrist and the shooter's hand. You can say that YOURS doesn't hurt YOU or even any of your friends, but that doesn't necessarily hold true for everyone.

I've always liked the safety though, but I wish it was 3-position.
Regards, Joe

Mr. Steele, we all own and shoot Enfield big bores, actual experience with them you know. I weigh 160lbs soaking wet and have small hands, Jeffe & Keith definetly DO NOT! If the dog leg bolt knob hit my hand, I would suggest replacing it. Perhaps your real issue is you just don't like the appearance?

I see. Thank you for the feedback. For those who suggested not altering the safety, rest assured that it will be as it was from the factory. Minus a little polishing and cleaning up.

I'll go ahead and weld up the hole, but otherwise leave it alone. If it is a problem, I can straighten it later. I need to make a note to shoot it in the pattern stock before I make the final adjustments.

Hog Killer, thanks for the photo. Is the magazine on your rifle the same depth as the P14/model 1917, just lengthened? How many will it hold down?

quote:

Is the magazine on your rifle the same depth as the P14/model 1917, just lengthened? How many will it hold down?

Yes, the mag is the same depth. Lenght is now 3.65+ ". 3 + 1. Works for me, just fine.

Keith

The length of the bolt handle has as much to do with it rapping you on the knuckles as the angle. The longer the handle is the more likley it is to thump you on the knuckle.

As in other things in this life, it all depends upon the proper placement of the knob! (VBG)
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
As in other things in this life, it all depends upon the proper placement of the knob! (VBG)
Regards, Joe

Well said!

Proper hand placement and a good grip, is what is needed.

If the bolt handle was not "right", don't you think that the British AND the US governments would have changed it. (P-14, Mod1917)

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Proper hand placement and a good grip, is what is needed.

If the bolt handle was not "right", don't you think that the British AND the US governments would have changed it. (P-14, Mod1917)

Keith

They did.

They, along with Newton and Remington, found that a dog-leg handle was not the desired solution and so they quit making them eventually. But they continued to make the 1903 and the 720 with their almost-straight handles. Apparently Remington didn't learn the lesson adequately though since they later produced the 600 and 660, but they soon realized their mistake and again stopped making them.

Ask yourself why no one makes them crooked today. Really pretty simple if you're not Cleopatra. But as always, different strokes......
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Ask yourself why no one makes them crooked today. Really pretty simple if you're not Cleopatra. But as always, different strokes......
Regards, Joe

ruger - centerfire 77s ..
even on their RSM, in 458 lott



its not as cut and dried as you might like

remington continued the model 30 for decades with a bent bolt handle.. and there's even some winchester enfields (51? i forget the model number) produced has high end guns.

Look, joe, it doesn't work for you, we get that...

This is an interesting thread.

In all the years I have worked on firearms, 39 1/2 years now, I ONLY HAD ONE bolt handle bite me, Dang Weatherby 460 MKV Custom with a checkered bolt handle. I still wear that scar.

I have put on a lot of bolt handles in my day, the length and postion of the handle in relationship to the grip and the shooter has to come together badly in order to be bitten or thumped by the handle.

But then I always had the advantage of shooting all those right handed rifles LEFT HANDED. Yes I am left eye dominent, and it took me years of pratice before I could shoot a right handed rifle with my right eye at a bench. Can not in the field due to the time it takes to adjust my eyes.

My father lost the tip of his shooting index finger years ago, and when the Left Handed Ruger M77 came out he said all right I am going to build one up in 35 Whelen. We rebored a 30-06 out and on the very first shot, HE PEEDED his pants.
Since his index finger is short he uses his second finger to pull the trigger, and guess where the bolt handle knob is in relationship to his short finger.
Yep, one shot, burised finger and wet pants, and that rifle went up for sale, he went back to his Remington 760 in 35 Whelen and never looked back.


James Wisner
Metalsmith

The bolt handle on a 460 Weatherby can be up near the muzzle and will still hit you somewhere. They can be a bit brutal.

Jeffe, the bolt handle shape you show was introduced by the first M70 and then continued as the Lenard Brownell style, IMO not really a dogleg at all. Lenard was one of Ruger's best designers so it's not a big suprise (grin). BTW that's the way Lenard spelled his name and he sold a lotta those bolt handles before he went to Ruger, they're still popular with many folks today.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
IMO not really a dogleg at all.

sorry man, here's you BS sign .. it is, without a doubt, a dogleg design.. its not quite a severe as the enfield, but straight it aint

However, your statement was "no one makes them crooked today" .. just aint true

Latest acquisition, ain't no one gonna mess this up! (except tig the hole) I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Latest acquisition, ain't no one gonna mess this up! (except tig the hole) I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Don't tig that hole in the bolt knob! Put a ivory inlet in it with your initials!

I thought about a plastic compass but it might break if it hit my knuckles!

I guess that the main point I was clarifying was whether there was a best position for the knob. My wife has her opinions on this from time to time, but that doesn't belong in the gunsmithing thread.

Looking at my Ruger, the knob is very close in postion to where the Enfield knob is if you look at it from the side. As shown in Jeffe's photo. However, it is tucked in closer to the rifle if viewed from the back. To my mind the Enfield positioning is better since it is easier to get hold of. But, it could be too far back.

From what I gathered so far, it is mostly a matter of personal taste. I don't want this rifle to be a Winchester clone.

Mr. Wisner, your story reminded me of my great uncle. He shortened his Savage 22 mag rifle (he never said why) to 16 or so inches. He finished, and test fired it. When he did he gripped the stock right at the muzzle, and his middle finger crept up a bit too high. Crack, and a hole appeared just below the knuckle. The finger was amputated at the first knuckle.

A few months later, we went out to shoot one afternoon (I was probably 8 or 9, he was about 70). He had a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley in 44 mag. On the first shot the stub was rammed into the trigger guard from his two handed grip. While I do not believe that he peed his pants, I about peed mine from the scream that he let out. The next day we cut the trigger guard off of the revolver, and it is that way to this day.

So far issues like this have not proven to be hereditary, but the gene might be biding its time.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
I thought about a plastic compass but one might break if it hit my knuckles!

Another option that looks really nice is to cut the knob off (at top end of the knob leaving a bit extra). Turn it around & fit the "stem" of the bolt handle left by cutting the knob off into the hole in the knob & weld it up & polish it all out. You're inverting the knob. The bolt handle ends up a bit shorter that way making it a little less likly to hit the knuckles.

my dogleg hurt my hand, on my 35 whelen, hit my first knuckle.

I had a burgess handle installed by Dennis Olson.