Cachet-

Every word in our language has a subtext--or a "backstory" if you will--and sometimes a single word (or two) will resonate with the power of volumes.

So it is with custom rifles.

To the cognoscenti, words like "Mauser," "Griffin and Howe," "Karamojo Bell," and more recently Burgess, Echols, Ottmar, each is a verbal engine that tows behind it a freight train worth of associations.

I bring this up because I recently purchased a NIB Interarms Mark X action. There's been a fair amount of discussion of these on the board recently, some pro, some con.

The truth I think is that while this may not be the best of all Mauser actions, it's serviceable. If I use this, I'll probably get rid of the trigger--I don't like side safeties that screw up the inletting, even though this is a bolt lock safety--but the bottom metal looks good, and the floorplate release is cleanly inletted into the trigger guard bow.

The finish is mainly nice, nothing to be ashamed of, although the temptation would be to bead blast and slow rust blue.

Were I to clean up the "Interarms" insignia--no more than is done in cleaning up a military action--no one would know the difference... between this and a few other Mauser actions.

I would, though.

Serviceable, but not one's first choice for a custom rifle.

The same goes, I think, for chamberings.

9.3x62, any of the H&H or Rigby, 7x57 especially.... all of these cartridges carry history with them.

A custom rifle chambered for any of these can only reinforce--or conform?--with the concept of a "Custom Rifle".

ALL OF THIS IS PRELUDE to my main concern: Can a rifle chambered in .308 be a true "Custom Rifle"?

The rational side of me says there's not a reason in the world that a .308 cannot be a custom rifle.

This chambering is more than adequate for most NA hunting applications, and it's the almost universal round of choice for long distance target work.

Still, it's very omnipresence may be its downfall: Custom rifles are about Romance, as much as precision workmanship, and the .308 is utterly lacking in Romance.

(As an aside, one notes that English majors studying the Romance genre are told that perhaps the most important characteristic of Romance is that it takes place somewhere else.)

Perhaps the most important qualification of the .308 is that it is very, very good at putting holes in paper--holes close together--at very long distances.

We know it too well.

To steal a phrase from a valuable AR contributor: "It's the girl next door."

I won't suggest that the .308 has no cachet.

What I will suggest is that .308 does have cachet, and all our associations with .308 run counter to the concept of Custom Rifle.

flaco

If it wasn't bought off the shelf, it's custom no matter what caliber cachet or not!

I don't build custom rifles for the romance, I've got women for that. I build them because they are superior, if only in my mind, to what I can acquire off the shelf. They incorporate features or dimensions or both that I feel important and that may not be available in a mass produced gun. It's true that "nostalgic" cartridges have a certain appeal but that alone is not enough if the cartridge isn't suited to the task the rifle is built for. If it's a hunting gun then the chosen cartridge had better be up to the task of dispatching the game. If it is a target rifle then it had better be accurate.

You seem to be looking for someone to talk you out of a .308. Perhpas into something else that you feel has more cachet?

You need to lay off the “pipe“ or start bringing enough drugs for all of us so we can get as “deep†into this as you obviously have!

Are people out there really so hung up on what other people think when it comes to their rifles? Perhaps I’m just a hard-ass...but personally, I couldn’t care less if someone else approves or disapproves of my choices in rifles, or anything else for that matter.

I once heard the word Fanatic aptly described as a person with a singular view that they want to force on a pluralistic world.

I slept with a locked and loaded M-14 many a time. Now, that's true romance!

quote:

I won't suggest that the .308 has no cachet.

I will. The cartridge is successful for good reason, but it is part of a "tool", and as such has all the historical provenence of a cresent wrench. It ain't old, it ain't gold. Just a tool, even if a very good one.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I slept with a locked and loaded M-14 many a time. Now, that's true romance!

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I slept with a locked and loaded M-14 many a time. Now, that's true romance!

There are several on this forum who can say the same thing and the forum is all the better for it. Most of my locked and loaded cuddling has been with a M16 or M4. They arent nearly as nice to hop in the sack with as a M14.

Flaco,
The 308 is by far my favorite caliber and I have a few custom rigs in that caliber. (all being target rifles) I do have plans to build a true full blown custom hunting rifle in 308 someday.

With that being said, it dont mean crap whether somebody agrees with your choice for a custom rifle or not. It is strictly what you want and what makes you feel good that matters. While I do agree that there is some "cachet", "nostalgia", or whatever you want to call it in the custom rifle world and I find myself guilty of it to a degree at times. But just like everything else in life, what the other guy thinks means nothing if it is what you want and makes you happy.

M1 Tanker ... Very well said.

I came in after the M14. I found the M16 was less of a bed hog than the M60.

As to custom rifles. I agree with M1Tanker. Custom is and should be all about what you want or desire. Chances are it will become your main or one of your main hunting rifles. Therefore it should be built around a caliber that suites your particular hunting needs and style. A caliber you can use to forge many fine memories. Those memories will be your romance years from now.

I would liken the M14 (or M1) to a veluptuous woman. (As a bed partner)

Nice and round with no "boney parts" stickin inta ya.

An M16 would be more like one of those "boney" ones. You know, the kind ya gotta "turn over" to avoid the stabbing sensations. (pain)

Flaco: I understand precisely what you are asking and I think that it is valid question for some us. Some custom rifles are constructed to fit particular circumstances, others (particularly Mausers) are made to capture a bygone era. A time when machinists knew their trade and took pride in their workmanship. Quality, not just the bottom line was important. In trying experience that since of history and the romance associated with it, in my humble view it would be inappropriate to say we say, "Mix our metaphors" by combining a Mauser that represents a different mind set and a 308 (essentially modern military round)

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
in my humble view it would be inappropriate to say we say, "Mix our metaphors" by combining a Mauser that represents a different mind set and a 308 (essentially modern military round)

Hmm, if that were the prevailing attitude when the Mauser sporters were built then practically none would have been built. Remember, most of the cartridges that we come to romanticise were at the time modern military cartridges. The 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x55, .30-06 I would venture to guess made up a substantial number of the total built.

I'm planning a Mauser in 8x60S. I already have an 8x57, several in fact, and an 8x68S. It serves no real purpose. I just want one and I damn sure aren't going to get approval before I start on it. Of course it will be traditionally styled with the appropriate tweaks to suit my needs in a rifle. But, it will be styled as such because that is the style that I find fits and works best for me, not because I got board approval or because it is somehow looked upon as "authentic".

Lest we forget...the rifles used by the vast majority of the Golden-Age custom gunsmiths to build their classic rifles were Military Mausers and Springfields.

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
Cachet -

Basically a seal or sign of approval which carries great prestige.

Just what someone that buys one of "my" rifles has.
---

Perhaps you were looking for Charisma.
---

In either situation, count me in with the guys who have had their bacon kept out of the frying pan by the absolutely amazingly wonderful 308Win. I'm fairly sure I've never been without one in the last 5 decades and they have NEVER let me down.

No doubt at all, the 308Win has Charisma, Cachet, great accuracy potential and a HUGE amount of Killing Ability in a light weight rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:
Most of my locked and loaded cuddling has been with a M16 or M4. They arent nearly as nice to hop in the sack with as a M14.

The last time I saw M1Tanker it was late evening and he was on the side of a trail, sitting by a little campfire, romancing a sweet Kimber 84 in 308. Unfortunately, both his leg and the riflestock were wrapped in duct tape because they were both freshly BROKEN!

Flaco, I've never warmed up to the 308 mainly because I like old Mausers and Model 70's. Both are generally long enough for an intermediate or longer cartridge, so why bother with a short cartridge? If I were building a tricked out M700 Remington or a new short-action Model 70 I'd consider a 308; but if you're talking about a full-length Mauser action, I'd go with a 7X57, 270, 280 or 30-06 - maybe even a 318 WR if I wanted romance and nostalgia.

The 308 will someday be a classic, but it was designed for full-auto...how romantic is that? It's a well known fact that men who find the 308 romantic also prefer women with fake breasts.

M1Tanker you told me you shot a monster buck with that 308 and it might make the Idaho record books whats up? Well at least M1Tanker didn't break the stock on that nice model 30 I gave him. Now that rifle is a classic.

John

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
Cachet-

and it's the almost universal round of choice for long distance target work.

Who told you that? There pulling your leg. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
In either situation, count me in with the guys who have had their bacon kept out of the frying pan by the absolutely amazingly wonderful 308Win. I'm fairly sure I've never been without one in the last 5 decades

What did you do; pull it right out of the womb?
The only reason I got one of those short necked poorly designed also ran, is because someone gave it to me. roger

I recently bought a Mark X in .308, and chiseled out the spacer so the box would take longer rounds.

I think you will be happier with something a little longer and more tapered.

lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by 323:
M1Tanker you told me you shot a monster buck with that 308 and it might make the Idaho record books whats up? Well at least M1Tanker didn't break the stock on that nice model 30 I gave him. Now that rifle is a classic.

John

You keep telling stories like that and I re-chamber the M30 to 300H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:
Most of my locked and loaded cuddling has been with a M16 or M4. They arent nearly as nice to hop in the sack with as a M14.

The last time I saw M1Tanker it was late evening and he was on the side of a trail, sitting by a little campfire, romancing a sweet Kimber 84 in 308. Unfortunately, both his leg and the riflestock were wrapped in duct tape because they were both freshly BROKEN!

Flaco, I've never warmed up to the 308 mainly because I like old Mausers and Model 70's. Both are generally long enough for an intermediate or longer cartridge, so why bother with a short cartridge? If I were building a tricked out M700 Remington or a new short-action Model 70 I'd consider a 308; but if you're talking about a full-length Mauser action, I'd go with a 7X57, 270, 280 or 30-06 - maybe even a 318 WR if I wanted romance and nostalgia.

The 308 will someday be a classic, but it was designed for full-auto...how romantic is that? It's a well known fact that men who find the 308 romantic also prefer women with fake breasts.

Eventually I will convert you to the 308 club. I thought my duct tape fix up worked pretty well. I am thinking that my Kimber is probably one of the most expensive crutches in history, but I havent received the bill from the ER yet so the crutches from there may go higher.

And whats wrong with fake hooters?

Not that it matters much...and not that it will change anyone’s mind...but Winchester released the 308 commercially to the public in 1952, and the US military didn’t adopt the 7.62x51mm round until 1955.

Yes, I know that the military (in conjunction with Winchester) had been experimenting with the cartridge (in various forms) since the late 1940’s...but the .308 was available to hunters at least three years before the 7.62x51mm was available to our troops.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
...What did you do; pull it right out of the womb?

Well, maybe it is only 49 years! Had the wonderful 300Sav before then.

Should be obvious that someone at Winchester looked at the 300Sav and said, my gosh that is an absolutely brilliant design(with a lot of cachet and charisma) and we could "steal" the concept by lengthening it a minute amount and jacking the pressures up to current levels.

The idea some folks carry of the 30-06 being shortened has been told for years. It just doesn't take much studying to realize the truth.

quote:

The only reason I got one of those short necked poorly designed also ran, is because someone gave it to me. roger

If it was a woman, it sounds like she needs a good man. Send her my way.

And come to think of it, I don't care if she has the factory standard or factory enhanced breasts as long as she has them.

Flaco,
you know that the 300 hh, with all her long legs and sleek body, was new one day, and someone at HH decided it would be a fine round to build a high custom. It is rather appropos that you would build a 308 on a mark X..

the "backstory" is usually and more accurately called etymology, which happens to be one of my hobbies.

If you wish a 308, and wish to build a custom, do this. Or, you could take what the upstart John Rigby did, and call it the .298 Flaco (named for bore, not groove, a la 275 rigby)

Rick
you KNOW the 308 is NOT the 7.62x51, though you can fire them in the same chamber, right? One can shoot surplus in a cetme all they like, but a couple boxes of commerical 308 will create a headspace problem.. and I expect that this was true with the fn-fal. 308 very much hotter in pressure.

If you think the action rates only "servicable but not one's first choice for a custom rifle", why bother to ruminate over the cachet of the caliber choice?

Buy an Oberndorf and then you can justify these kinds of mental masturbations we all engage in from time to time.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Rick
you KNOW the 308 is NOT the 7.62x51, though you can fire them in the same chamber, right? One can shoot surplus in a cetme all they like, but a couple boxes of commerical 308 will create a headspace problem.. and I expect that this was true with the fn-fal. 308 very much hotter in pressure.

jeff,

Yes, I do know that...I was only making the point that the commercial round was available prior to the military round. In fact it was a bit more than three years in practical terms since the 7.62x51mm round was adopted two years before the military adopted a rifle (the M14) to fire it.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:


Should be obvious that someone at Winchester looked at the 300Sav and said, my gosh that is an absolutely brilliant design(with a lot of cachet and charisma) and we could "steal" the concept by lengthening it a minute amount and jacking the pressures up to current levels..

I think your analogy is right on and it only took about 12yrs. of tax payer dollars to study it.Just think ; during that time they could have rediscovered the M43 and really had something.Now here come the 6.8 after 60 yrs.Not a 7mm or a6.5mm but a 6.8mmmmm????? More tax dollars at work roger

Geez, what a bunch of cynical bastards!

How many cartridges out there started as a truly 100% original design? The 300 Savage was little more than a shorter 06 for use in handier sized actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Geez, what a bunch of cynical bastards!
.

Golly! Talk about a lack of Cachet. I'll bet someone stole your Magic Mt. E-Tickey roger

I’ve never been known for having much “cachet†and I wouldn’t know what to do with a ticket for Magic Mt. if a had one.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
...Now here come the 6.8 after 60 yrs.Not a 7mm or a6.5mm but a 6.8mmmmm????? More tax dollars at work roger

Hey Roger, What do they plan to do with that sawed off 270(6.8mm)?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
...How many cartridges out there started as a truly 100% original design? ...

Now, that is an interesting question.

Was the 7x57 that flaco cranked this up with "original"?

M1 & 323,

If you keep this up, over that Model 30S. It needs to come to ME, so that my Lott will have a .375 bore brother.

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
M1 & 323,

If you keep this up, over that Model 30S. It needs to come to ME, so that my Lott will have a .375 bore brother.

Hog Killer

323 has been going through firearms conversation withdrawal ever since I moved a month ago. Now he is without anybody to swap gun stories with in a town with one tiny gun shop. His degenerative condition is completely understandable under those circumstances.

But now 323 has a sweet Savage Model 20 that he keeps flaunting around that I am trying to talk him out of.