Recently a fellow brought a Rem 1100 12 Ga into the shop complaining that it would FTF(feed) once every 100 rds or so and wanted us to fix it. I tore it down, cleaned it, installed new action spring, carrier, and gas seals. I then fired 50 rds each of 4 different brands of ammo without a FTF. Cleaned it, boxed it up, and sent it back. Two weeks later it returned with complaint that it FTF one rd after 400 rds and that he was pissed and wanted the damn gun fixed this time. Now I've been at this for a while and have yet to see a SA gun that fed 100% all of the time. Guns can jam or FTF for a number of reasons and can be shooter induced. What are your opinions?

Tell him to hit the road; I don't have time for guys like that and I doubt you do either.
The customer is more than half the time, wrong, I find.
MRBF, or MTBF; mean rounds or time between failure. Every mechanical device has a value. I don't know what Remington's criteria is.

Once in 400 rounds is acceptable. Cleaned per the manufacturers instruction manual?

Tell him to buy a benelli, and that reasonable amount before one FTF is higher.

I dislike semi- auto shotguns because they do eventually shit the bed. Buy a $700 miroku over and under and experience real reliability.

Well spoken, I have reflected this sentiment previouslly but with 10 trips to SA for doves and pigeons, the only ones that had trouble with FTF were the smeiautos, and I shot a superposed and a Dal;y 20ga.

Another thing to consider, especially since it's a gas gun is brand/quality of ammo.
Amount of residue has an impact on how soon/often failures occur.

It's always the repair mans fault no matter what.

Dave

I'll echo the comment to tell him to buy a Benelli. I don't shoot trap or the like regularly, but I had the opportunity to do a "complimentary" range day. I put close to 400 rounds through a Benelli and it never hiccupped. I would wager between the people that shot it before me and the people after, that it had close to 800 rounds through it, and I never saw anyone clean it.

Or tell him that it requires cleaning every 200 rounds

It ain't a question of IF, but WHen!

Failure to feed? or Failure to Fire?

What kind of ammo? Reloads or factory? Paper or plastic? I've seen all kinds of failures to feed on semi-autos. Sometimes failure to fire is a result of weak springs? Did you replace all the springs? Lots of failures to feed in a shotgun are reloader induced...

Never mind I saw feed. Look at replacing the trigger, hammer and lifter springs... You can induce a failure to feed in a semi-auto gas gun by not firmly holding it against your shoulder.

Well I shoot an 1100. Pretty reliable, but it'll have a FTF every 16 rounds of skeet for sure. Especially if I shoot 1 oz skeet loads instead of 1-1/8 oz standard loads. Or if it's really cold and I've shot a bunch of dirty loads. How are you going to guarantee against dirt and light loads and temperature?

My Dad's Benelli btw would have an FTF with 1-1/8 oz target loads every 400 rounds after about the first 10 years, even with regular cleanings, too. But he mostly shot 3" goose shells, which always cycled.

You COULD offer to drill his gas ports oversized and you could probably get it to always cycle (did this on a dedicated skeet gun to allow shooting 7/8 oz loads), but it might eat the gun up if he shoots standard or heavy loads.

His expectations are way too high for an 1100. That is the only problem I see.

Benelli Montefeltro or Ethos. The Ethos is the cats meow for reliability with any load one could possibly try to run through it. I’m no gunsmith, but I’d try to find a polite way to tell your custom to pound sand (or go Benelli).

Thanks for the replies. I agree that it is way above proper expectations for nearly any SA shotgun. I also agree that many shooters are trying to get reliability with 1 oz loads when many, especially older, guns were designed to run with 1-1/8 oz loads. We have drilled out one gas port but don't like doing it because as soon as the guy shoots heavy loads he pounds the action. We picked up some 40 year old Remington Sure Shot 12 gauge 1-1/8 loads recently from an estate and there is really a difference between them and modern loads. Some would consider them hot. But they sure cycle good.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Thanks for the replies. I agree that it is way above proper expectations for nearly any SA shotgun. I also agree that many shooters are trying to get reliability with 1 oz loads when many, especially older, guns were designed to run with 1-1/8 oz loads. We have drilled out one gas port but don't like doing it because as soon as the guy shoots heavy loads he pounds the action. We picked up some 40 year old Remington Sure Shot 12 gauge 1-1/8 loads recently from an estate and there is really a difference between them and modern loads. Some would consider them hot. But they sure cycle good.

Try "CLEVER Mirage", they are Italian made. Years ago, when I first opened my shop, I got 'swamped' with Browning Auto-5s. I guess no one local knew how to clean one. Very few needed any parts, a new bronze maybe. Most owners were trying to shoot WalMart shells, which didn't have enough 'umph' to make um cycle. I did and still do business with Gene Sears Supply, so next time I was in I asked Gene if he has a shotshell on the shelf that was made to pre-WalMart specs and would cycle a 1100 and Auto-5. he put me on to these Mirage, and I've been buying them ever since. 12g., 1 1/8oz. . 20g., 1oz.

Many years ago, I had a 20 ga Franchi AL-48 long recoil action shotgun. Shot countless rounds of skeet with 7/8 oz loads. Never had a FTF.

Purchased a gas-operated Franchi 12 ga. Had a FTF soon afterward. Sold it immediately and have not owned a gas-operated shotgun since, or probably ever will.

The Franchi AL-48 is now gone, replaced with break-action shotguns that also never FTF.

Fire the customer - i bet he wanted it "fixed" at no additional charge -

you have no control of the variables, other than it left your shop functional and cleaned. you have no controls of the shells, firing conditions, cleaning/mtsc schedule and practices, or even the lubrication or storage of a CHEAP semi-auto.

I believe that the question is how to make it feed correctly.

Here is what I have found over the years with 1100 Rem. The receiver may not have clearance for the locking block when fired. The barrel extension area into the receiver would not be inline with the barrel extension. In other words the locking bolt would slow down the rearward movement and pound the receiver hard enough to cause the problem. Remove the metal in the receiver to the the same level as the inside of the barrel extension.

The plate that holds the operating handle can come loose and cause a similar problem of fail to operate on ejecting shells. Silver solder the plate back into the proper position as the original location on the operating bar.

Use this information at your own risk!! It worked for me when we were a warranty center back 30 yrs ago.

Checked with my brother today about FTF with his 1100. He laughed! It just never quits! Gets an o-ring clean and lube along with a trigger spray when it gets really groady! 150,000 or more rounds thru it with a few replaced parts. It just never quits!

I don't know how many 1100's I worked on but certainly well over a thousand. When they failed, there was always an identifiable reason whether it was a lack of maintenance or ammo choice. If I had the customer you describe, I would suggest to him that he might want lube the barrel prior to insertion into the recommended orifice. Regards, Bill.

I also think the failure rate should be zero.

When one of mine has a hiccup, I try and figure out why. Usually I find something obvious.

Ammo
Technique
Operating condition (cleanliness)
Appropriateness

While once it’s loaded I have fewer issues with doubles, if one includes hard feeding, squibs and ammo issues I can’t really say the doubles and the benelli guns have much difference for me, I just catch the ammo problems more reliably before shooting with the doubles.

I actually have more issues with pump guns because I tend to not work the actions as vigorously as I should.

Gas guns, yes, if I get out of cleaning them like I should I have issues.

I also have not shot 1000+ rounds in a session, so I can’t comment on high volume birds like SA shooting.

Gosh, Sure glad not to have such problems with my Parkers!


In RSA the borrowed SxS had no FTF either.

Bobster,

Hope it isn't a cheap ammo combined with light loads issue. Having no issues with my 1100 following a proper clean and lube, the ammo is more likely to cause an issue in my view. Which brand of shells was he using?

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
Recently a fellow brought a Rem 1100 12 Ga into the shop complaining that it would FTF(feed) once every 100 rds or so and wanted us to fix it. I tore it down, cleaned it, installed new action spring, carrier, and gas seals. I then fired 50 rds each of 4 different brands of ammo without a FTF. Cleaned it, boxed it up, and sent it back. Two weeks later it returned with complaint that it FTF one rd after 400 rds and that he was pissed and wanted the damn gun fixed this time. Now I've been at this for a while and have yet to see a SA gun that fed 100% all of the time. Guns can jam or FTF for a number of reasons and can be shooter induced. What are your opinions?

He won't say. I suspect the same. With 1 1/8 oz loads it runs great. He is probably trying to cheap out with low power loads designed for double gun shooters.

Attended several Remington shooting schools when I first retired. One of the instructors was a Remington engineer. His instructions for maintenance was clean the barrel and action once in a while and lube nothing. Replace the stamped parts as they wear out or break but lube nothing.

Won't say, huh. Sounds like the type that refuses to admit he is wrong. Did you try an indirect approach to the ammo question?
Ex: So, your buddies run the same exact ammo your are running without any problems?


QUOTE]Originally posted by Bobster:
He won't say. I suspect the same. With 1 1/8 oz loads it runs great. He is probably trying to cheap out with low power loads designed for double gun shooters.[/QUOTE]