I´m thinking of making a 416 Rigby on a M-98 action (HVA) and I have tried to get some info about this here at the AR forum. I get some interesting info but I still have some thoughts about this, that´s why I´m posting this now!

It looks like the way to go is to remove a little from the feeding ramp in the front and a bit more in the rear end of the action. How much can I remove from the rear and still get a good solution with the bolt stop and ejector?

Do I have to make a new bolt stop/ejector or is there a clever way to get around this?

A few pictures of a M-98 remade to handle 416 Rigby rounds would make me a happy man

Stefan

Try and find "Big Bore Rifles: by Jack Lott...Lotsa examples of 416's on 98's. You wont have much luck opening a Mauser to the rear and I think you have the odd push button type bolt release??? If you somehow allow he bolt to travel to rear further, you may not line up with the rear of the magazine, leading to loading problems.

Thank´s Duane! I´ll look for the book.

Loading problems on a 416 Rigby sounds like a major problem

Stefan

Making a m98 into a 416rigby, is more dangerus than using a Bla***.
To make the magasin longenough to accept a 416rigby, requirea that you open up the action in both the front and rear.
Removing support for the lower lug in the front is very hazardus, this combined with larger internal preasurearea leves you with wery low or no safetymargin at all. An 416rigby puts more than dubbel thrust on the bolt, compared to an ordinary 30.06
Opening the rearend of the action gives you a bolt that will wobble alover the place when repeating.

Conclution: if you want a 416rigby, find an action that originaly is born long and strong enough

Well, just for grins.....





-Bob F.

jörgen

Since the orginal Rigby actions was m 98 Mausers I doubth that the action becomes a "death-trap" if I remove a mm or two in the front end and the rest from the rear end........

I suspect that the bolt will become a bit wobbly when it´s pulled all the way back. But again, could Rigby orginal rifles be used for dangerous game I probably can live with it

Stefan

-Bob F!

Now, thats a good looking big-game rifle!

Stefan

nice rearsight , also, and that iit is a historical and famous rifle also makes it into a one of a kind.

quote:

Originally posted by Stefan:
jörgen

Since the orginal Rigby actions was m 98 Mausers I doubth that the action becomes a "death-trap" if I remove a mm or two in the front end and the rest from the rear end........

I suspect that the bolt will become a bit wobbly when it´s pulled all the way back. But again, could Rigby orginal rifles be used for dangerous game I probably can live with it

Stefan

Just remember that when Rigby made the m98 rifles in cal 416rigby, the ammo was loaded with cordite, witch delivers a wery low chamberpresure. Modern powders and factoryloads might produce mutch higher preasures. And acording to tests performed the m98 could be destroyed with a 6.5x55 loaded with 42 grains N200 powder behind an 160 grains bullit. Modern actions survived up to 48grains.
Even that the case leaked the gass, there was major lug-setbacks on the m98, especialy on the lower lug. and that was without weakening the counterhold

If you find a very talented smith that will take two actions and cut them in half and reweld them into a long action and a short action and then harden the receivers this can be done with much less risk of setback and loss of strength in the receiver.

I've read threads here on this and it seems there are not many that do this.

If I was dead set on a 416 Rigby on a '98 Mauser this is the route I'd take. In stead I'm in waiting for a MRC PH model.

Or the Oberndorf new made in .416 which have the style and feeling of what the old ones had.

Contact Timan privately and speak with him about undertaking a project like this. If anyone could pull it off, he could.

I do imagine this would be an expensive project however.

Thx. Jason!

I´ll try to get in contact with Timan and se if hi can give me some info on the matter.

Since I do some gunsmithing myselfe this project will cost me time, not that much money

Jørgen,
Very interesting to hear your thoghts about this. It has been done a lot, both by old gunmakers and new custom gunmakers, but neither has tested as many mausers as you have! But it is still done a lot, at least to .375H&H and .404 Jeffery. Is this as bad? How much is it safe to open?

Thanks,

Why not just buy one already made up on a CZ 550 and smith that to make it a bit nicer. One hell of a lot cheaper and safer.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Just remember that when Rigby made the m98 rifles in cal 416rigby, the ammo was loaded with cordite, witch delivers a wery low chamberpresure. Modern powders and factoryloads might produce mutch higher preasures.

An intersresting hypothesis. What precisely is its source?

I have loaded the .404 Jeffery for over 25 years with Cordite taken from a case of salvaged .416 Kynoch ammo, all of which had developed age-cracking of the case necks.

My personal experience is that it was easier for me to get into pressure problems using the Cordite than when using the modern powders to which I switched about 5 years ago.

As I recall, one of the reasons the high percentage of nitro-glycerine was used in the original Cordite was to gain the additional energy per unit of weight which it provided. Of course it also provided more erosion because the added energy was partially released in the form heat. Thus, the introduction of Modite and Axite, with much less nitro content, thus less energy and less heat.....

Am not trying to be disagreeable, or a smart ass, but really am interested in the source material behind this quoted statement...

I love these kind of discussions...gets the brain cells moving. If the original Rigby was loaded to approximtely 42K pressure, then any modern powder which burns slow enough to develop a similiar pressure curve should be safe at similiar velocities. I once shot Harry Selbys 416 M98...too light for my taste.

Rich

AA3100 or 8700 perhaps...?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I love these kind of discussions...gets the brain cells moving. If the original Rigby was loaded to approximtely 42K pressure, then any modern powder which burns slow enough to develop a similiar pressure curve should be safe at similiar velocities.
Rich

AA3100 or 8700 perhaps...?

I agree Idaho SS. That's one of the reasons I switched to the modern powders. Current propellants can easily be weighed to 0.1 grain, though with reasonable pressure levels 1.0 grains is usually close enough for safety in cases as large as the Rigby, with appropriate burning rate powders.

Still, it IS a BIT-H to cut Cordite by hand to strand lengths where one can weigh it precisely to even to 1.0 grain. In loading my .404 Jeffery with the Cordite from the .416 Rigby rounds, I found that increments of about 3.0 grains were as close as I could easily cut.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Just remember that when Rigby made the m98 rifles in cal 416rigby, the ammo was loaded with cordite, witch delivers a wery low chamberpresure. Modern powders and factoryloads might produce mutch higher preasures.

An intersresting hypothesis. What precisely is its source?

I have loaded the .404 Jeffery for over 25 years with Cordite taken from a case of salvaged .416 Kynoch ammo, all of which had developed age-cracking of the case necks.

My personal experience is that it was easier for me to get into pressure problems using the Cordite than when using the modern powders to which I switched about 5 years ago.

As I recall, one of the reasons the high percentage of nitro-glycerine was used in the original Cordite was to gain the additional energy per unit of weight which it provided. Of course it also provided more erosion because the added energy was partially released in the form heat. Thus, the introduction of Modite and Axite, with much less nitro content, thus less energy and less heat.....

Am not trying to be disagreeable, or a smart ass, but really am interested in the source material behind this quoted statement...

I ame not sure about how old cordite reacts today, but as far as i remember the old 416rigby was only loadet to a presure of apx 2500bar, compared to the 3600-3800 bar used in modern magnum calibers.
If you load the 416rigby to the same 3800 bar ao presure it will deliver velocities higher than the 416wea.
But the statement about the original loads used in the old Rigbyes was mainly to explain why it was posible for rigby to build his rifles, even if it reduces the safetymargin on the old m98 dramaticaly, especiasly if you uses modern powders, loadet to modern presures.
From the informations i have , the reason for the extremly large case used on the 416 Rigby, was that it was necesecary for reaching the intended velocities, because the cordite that was used at that time had a relativly low energi contents (limited capacity to produse gass pr wolume unit)

My warning for altering an old m98 into a 416Rigby was mainly because that even if there is 1000 who succesfully (no recorded accidents) has made this conversion, it is from my point of vue stil not safe if you reduce the safety margin to less than 100%
1 seriusly injured shooter because of a to optimistcal rebuilding, is definitly 1 to manny.
Even if you succed driving your car down the main avenue with 100mph 100 times in a row. it is not the same as proofing it to be safe

I am certainly no expert at stretching M98's to fit the .416 Rigby. However, I do know the cost of welding up two actions to get a "magnum" length action should be more than the cost of a new Granite Mountain action (which will also have the .750" diameter bolt size), if it is done by a reputable metalsmith. If you are set on using an old action, I would be more inclined to consider the 1917/1914 Enfield. Tom Burgess and Ted Blackburn have done this many times. I still think the new action would be a better/less expensive solution.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jørgen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jørgen:



I ame not sure about how old cordite reacts today,





I am not sure that is relevant to the question I asked, which was, essentially "what is the source of the information on which you based your statement that Cordite cpontains less energy than modern powders?"
-------------------------



From the informations i have , the reason for the extremly large case used on the 416 Rigby, was that it was necesecary for reaching the intended velocities, because the cordite that was used at that time had a relativly low energi contents (limited capacity to produse gass pr wolume unit)


Are you certain the large case was not chosen so Rigby's could use enough Cordite to attain the desired velocity, while keeping pressures DOWN?
------------------------



My warning for altering an old m98 into a 416Rigby was mainly because that even if there is 1000 who succesfully (no recorded accidents) has made this conversion, it is from my point of vue stil not safe if you reduce the safety margin to less than 100%
1 seriusly injured shooter because of a to optimistcal rebuilding, is definitly 1 to manny.
Even if you succed driving your car down the main avenue with 100mph 100 times in a row. it is not the same as proofing it to be safe



No one disagrees with that statement. Nor do I yet disagree with 100% certainty to your statement about Cordite energy vis-a-vis modern powder energy content. But, I doubt it a great deal. So I am asking again, what is the source of that information?

As to rebuilding a Masuer '98 to use the Rigby round, done properly I would have no fear whatsoever of it, PROVIDED THAT ORGINAL PRESSURES WERE NOT EXCEEDED WITH THE ROUNDS FIRED IN IT.


---------------------------

rigby would open up a standard action only if there was not a magnum avaliable ,was selbys gun built post ww2 ? if so it explains the use of this action it is borderline ridiculous to have to stick that round into an action meant for 8mm selbys gun is one of the few 416,s built on a standard size action your more apt to see 404,s or 425,s which were made specifically for standard actions
remember rigby had mauser build magnum actions for a reason ........paul

Personally I would pull up at the .404 J for a M98......................I have an m98 .404 J and love it it's a classic trim lite weight big bore but in hind site I think the .404 J is better suited to say an m70 or cz action.

I won't be getting rid of my m98 .404 J though

I just think the .416 Rigby even though it has been done is stretching the friendship.

quote:

Originally posted by M98:
I am certainly no expert at stretching M98's to fit the .416 Rigby. However, I do know the cost of welding up two actions to get a "magnum" length action should be more than the cost of a new Granite Mountain action (which will also have the .750" diameter bolt size), if it is done by a reputable metalsmith. .

Not a chance, the GMA magnum action is over $3k.

i am certain you meant "qualified" when you said "reputable"... lots of folks misuse "reputable" when they either mean "only the best 4 people i happen to be thinking of" or they meant "a high quality guy"

I would be FLOORED if the welding and cleanup charges totalled over $750, for a person that has done this before. Including bolt, firing ping, and a working mag box.

But, I wouldn't bother with the mag box, I would just order CZ USA bottom metal, which is mag mauser spacing and uses a floating box.

quote:

If you are set on using an old action, I would be more inclined to consider the 1917/1914 Enfield. Tom Burgess and Ted Blackburn have done this many times. I still think the new action would be a better/less expensive solution.

As well as numberous other people, including Jim Wisener (who wrote an excellent article on the process) and myself. It's not BETTER it's easier. You wind up, if you are using a "reputable" gunsmith, charging the same rates, at about the same amount of time as welding the actions together.

Now, I ain't a fan of welding them together, but it certainly has worked before. And, if you want a magnum mauser length, this is the cost effective way to get a MAUSER that length.

jffe

quote:

cordite

very primitive, heat sensitive and "salty" (corrosive) that required large strands to control burnrate in large cases, as flaked cordite is nearly an explosive...

the only reason the 416 rigby had low pressure with the cordite load is the size of the case, not the speed of the cordite. Recall "cordite" is used in the 303, the 404, and the 505... and it's the SAME stuff.

with modern powders, loaded with 410 at 2400, it is trival to get that velocity and be at or under pressure.

jeffe

As someone who earns a fair amount of his livelihood modifying Mauser 98's, I certainly did not mean to imply that they cannot be used for large cartridges. And, yes, it may be less expensive to modify an older military action than to purchase a new manufactured one. However, in the case of these really large cases, I prefer to tell the customer, up front, that the safety advantage lies with the modern magnum actions.