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Mr. Moderator Can we have a new forum called "Pissing Contests" and all intelligent topics that go that direction could then be relocated? This board has provided me a wealth of information and inspiration from notables and unknown but knowledgeable types. When I can I try to pay back with my meager bit of information or insight. However, really good posts are getting seriously out of hand with name calling and derogatory statements. I realize that freedom of speech and censorship, etc, etc. It would just be nice to read something and see folks act civilized. Thaine "Begging hands and bleeding hearts will always cry out for more..." Ayn Rand "Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here, we might as well dance" Jeanne C. Stein | |||
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Well, one thing many people fail to take into account when discussing Mauser heat treatment is that each country negotiated a contract with Mauser that specified things like, stock, barrel length, and yes, even heat treatment specs. Bear in mind that when Argentina ordered up the 1909 they had on hand about 20 Million rounds of ammo for the Model 1891. The heat treatment that came with the 1909 was plenty sufficient for those rounds. It is when higher pressure rounds were fired that problems arose. Something else to consider is that today's powders burn with a lot more vigor than the powders the Mauser actions were built for. Today’s powders can display as many as 5 temporary pressure spikes some of which approach 100kpsi then drop down to zero, back up into the 80Kpsi range then back to zero, etc. This is all viewed rather clearly through a histogram of the load. It is the average of these spikes that is reported as your average max pressure. It is this series of shocks that hammers the lugs and seats leading to setback. I am usually loathe to make such statements because of the flurry of uninformed attacks such pronouncements usually evoke.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Z1R right on. I thought I would point this out, this is my understand of it. Proof loads are designed to make sure that an action won't fail (blow apart, split, peel, whatever). Companies DO care about covering their asses and DO make sure to the best they can not to publish data that would blow a gun apart. I doubt though that they care whether or not your gun is damaged over time from GUN INADEQUACIES, just because firing a round in it won't blow it up doesn't mean that it won't set the lugs back. If people that do gun building for a living and touch MANY more actions than most of us will ever see say it needs to be done, well..........for the cost to do it why gamble on the side of stupid? I sent two 09's I have to my smith for him to handle the carbon addition on them. I can't remember what I paid to have him do it, but it is negligible compared to having a nice rifle become junk just to save a few bucks. I don't know specifically if 08's need to be carburized/re-hardened, however you want to term it. that is something that should be discussed with your COMPETENT gunsmith. Local gunshop guys told me about one of my 09's (in 7mmrem mag by the way), no, those never need to be reheat treated. uh huh. it can be tested. if the smith thinks it needs it then I would do it. it's pennies in the total of what a custom/semi-custom will cost you. Red | |||
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on 1908s .. these are as fine as 1909s, with different bottom metals. nice actions. on CUP vs PSI - cup and PSI are NOT interchangable, except for the occurance around 28k. at 28k, they are CLOSE but not the same measurement. These are NOT interchangable, nor is there a fixed method of interpolation. stating that they are the same is irresponsible and dangerous. Please do not post blant and dangerous "statements"
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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One thing I will say before bowing completely out of this thread, aside from the fact that if you read my posts - in no place do I say CUP and PSI are the same - what I said was that prior to strain gauge pressure measurement CUP was often (wrongly) lisyted as PSI in pre-1960's reloading manuals and catalogues - is that I have grave doubts about what heat treating can do to a 1908/1909 action. Let me first say, I have never designed a heat treatment for a rifle receiver. However, I do design heat treatments for other parts all the time. The early Mauser receivers are virtually un-hardenable because a very low carbon steel was used for their construction. Modern heat treating of such a receiver will do basically nothing for it unless carbone is added. This is something any sane person will agree with. The most common form of adding that carbon today is gas carburization. In the past, case hardening using bone meal for a carbon source was more common. Essentially carburization will add carbon to the outer shell of the part, up to several thou deep depending on exposure time, steel being carburized, surface finish, temperature, etc. But basically, in the end, only the outer skin has appreciable carbon content. Once this receiver is hardenend, you could make the receiver shell into austentitic steel if you really wanted to. It would be glass hard and only the sharpest file would cut it. It would probably also be too brittle. Pearlititc steel is more reasonable IMHO. But at the end of the day, only a few thou of thikness will take the heardening. this will impart incredible wear resistance, but does nothing for core strength. What I fail to see is how increasing surface hardness will stop plastic deformation at the lug seats, or anywhere else? Lug setback is a result of shear stress on the lug seats in the CORE MATERIAL, not the surface skin which has virtually no shear resistance anyhow??? From a steels standpoint - it just doesn;t make sense that re-hardening the surface will in any way prevent a receiver from experiencing setback. I stand to be educated. | |||
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If that's true then read this Read it all and note who is posting. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I am well aware of Mr. Echols, and I also have had more than one chat offline with Bill Leepers on this topic. I believe what Mr. Echols says that after treatment his receivers performed better, but I have yet to have the science of it explained to me properly. It scientifically doesn't make sense that surface hardening would improve core shear properties. The only thing I can figure is that the receivers were somehow left annealed at the lug seats during manufacture and that they had virtually no grain crystalization above the martensitic level. This is speculation though. FWIW, everything I've seen though suggests that is you stay below 50K PSI pressures your untreated 1908/1909 will likely not set back appreciably in your lifetime. Mr. Echols himself suggests the owner with the set back .270 had pushed published data limits chasing bullet speeds. | |||
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It doesn't raise the core strength, it raises the threshold where elastic deformation becomes plastic deformation. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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