Whats the quality fit finish etc. of a 1908 Deutsche Waffen-... Berlin action.

Is it like the 1909 arg. and might need heat treat too?

Is a VZ24 a better choice?

They don't come much better than the 1908. Very seldom is re-heat treament required. Frequently the area behind the recoil lug ia tested and come up "soft"...supposed to be! The important area (the locking recess) is a very difficult area to test and this is usually carburized...try a carbide scribe and you'll immediately notice the extreme hardness...This area resists wear and tear while the rest of the action will stretch if pressures become outrageous

The first Mauser I ever worked on was a Brazilian 1908.....I turned it into a 25-06 and didn't heat treat it.....hell, I didn't know they was supposed to be heat treated back in 1972 when I did that one!!!! I never had a lick of trouble with it.....a fine action and a very good prairie dogger it was.

I'm on DWM Brazillian 1908 Mausers.

quote:

Is a VZ24 a better choice?

Right now I'm working on three of these.....all stamped 1938. These things are so smooth they make gooseshit envious. (a quote from P Dog Shooter)

IMO these are the very best.

quote:

They don't come much better than the 1908

As Daune said those 1908s are the sweet hearts of the 98s

Is the styer 1908 the same thing? I think thats what I picked up a little while ago.

DWMs were made by Deutche Waffen und Munitions fabriken in Berlin. Steyr was made by the Steyr plant in Austria

I guess what I ment to say was, is it as good? It sure is a tight, slick working action.

It is an excellent action.

Umm... perhaps I'm missing something here, but aside from the charger guide contour, the 1908 is supposed to be the same action made in the same plant on the same assembly line as the 1909 Argentines.

Someone please explain to me why half the gunsmithing world considers re-heat treatment a necessity on 1909 actions, but aparently not on 1908 actions?

FWIW, I've built up a number of guns on 1909's from 7x57 to .35 whelen. Never retreated a single receiver, and all have been jsut fine with no measurable setback???

Or does this only apply to people building big high-pressure boomers?

quote:

Someone please explain to me why half the gunsmithing world considers re-heat treatment a necessity on 1909 actions, but aparently not on 1908 actions?

Sir:.....you're not the first to ask this question......and I, too have used both these actions (and both in .25-06) without heat treating.

Only a few days ago I read a post of a post war FN that experienced "setback"......and to the point that the action would no longer open!!!

All I can say is that if I was to send a Mauser to D'Arcy Echols to be turned into a piece of art I'd want it heat treated.....not because it needed to be....but as an insurance policy. When one spends boo-koo bucks on a Mauser he don't want a $10,000 piece of scrap iron!!!!!

Frankly I doubt that more than 1 in a thousand Mausers are converted to sporters with the benefit of heat treating.

I hear what you're saying, but most smiths I've worked with, I always ask if they think heat treating is necessary (here in Canada it's hard to find places to even do it). 90% of smiths I talk to say that if the gun ever fails with setback from normal loads, they'll swap in a new receiver for free.

The gunsmith I work with most often tells me he's built hundreds of Mauser sporters on 1909's and 1908's and has never seen a non-magnum Mauser action fail due to setback that couldn't be explained by a reloading error.

"Let's consider a plain Mauser action. First of all, the knowledgeable riflemaker will determine if the proposed action is tough enough in its present form. Many of the earlier military and commerical versions are quite soft and therefore unsituable for modern high intensity cartridges. The thrust actually mashes the locking lugs into the receiver steel and after a few rounds a condition of excessive headspace develops. UNFORTUNATELY, this condition is more prevalent in the better finished actions such as those made by DWM, Oberndorf, etc. This does not mean that the actions are useless, but they will have to be properly heat treated by a specialist in order to bring them up to suitable hardness."

Page 321 The Modern Rifle by Jim Carmichel

I've seen that regurgitated so many times it just crazy.

1908's and 1909's withstood on the order of 100,000psi proof loading.

I fail to see how a 45-50,000 psi .35 whelen round is going to cause it to fail under normal conditions. Hell, the .30 Mauser and for that matter the 7x57 isn't much different in pressure than that, and I've never heard of masses of Argentine and brazilian mausers needing to be scrapped in service...

Ok ... what's a 1908 DWM action worth. Say its had the rear bridge hump surfaced and been D/T'd. nice bolt with clean face ,,,maybe with a argy bottom metal???

$175 ??

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
I've seen that regurgitated so many times it just crazy.

1908's and 1909's withstood on the order of 100,000psi proof loading.

I fail to see how a 45-50,000 psi .35 whelen round is going to cause it to fail under normal conditions. Hell, the .30 Mauser and for that matter the 7x57 isn't much different in pressure than that, and I've never heard of masses of Argentine and brazilian mausers needing to be scrapped in service...

Sir, I believe you have no idea what pressures these cartridges operate at nor at what pressure proof rounds operate. 100K psi is way more than a proof load's pressures. And the Whelen operates about 10,000 psi higher than you stated.

Tough call, GSP-

I believe I'd pay up to about $250-$270 for an excellent unaltered '09 action, so I'd guess about the same for an '08 with Argie bottom metal.

And... I can't speak for the rest of the guys, but I think I'd rather take care of the receiver clean-up and d/t myself.

Thus not certain those alterations would contribute to the price of an action.

flaco

Flaco , right on. Im Eye balling a 1908 but I dont know if the work done to it is done right or even done right but something is messed up on it.

dont know if the work done to it is done right or even done right but something is messed up on it.

GSP7 If you could post some close up photos of the work that has been done maybe i can help.

or send me the photos & i will post them.

Just for kicks I might add that I currently own three 09 actions and one 08 action. The 09s are all soft. The 08 I had rehardened when it was customized. As a comparison, I had my 08 action up for sale. it has been professionally ground front and rear. the sear slot was openend up as well. new bolt handle professionally welded on. front ring was trued. and lugs were lapped. I had a lot of lookers at $295 but nobody purchased it. However, if you look to buy on 08 action you are probably not going to find one for less than $150 bucks in good shape and maybe more. And a new bolt welded on is going to be close to $100 from a good smith that does a good job.
09 bottom metal goes for $100 as it is and $150 with a straddle floorplate. A blackburn trigger is $85 these days. A 3 position dakota safety is $145. So you are going to have some money into it.

22wrf Aint it depressing? All for the mystic of that old stamp on the side of the reciever...?...

GSP

Yea, its depressing, but its also alot of fun for so long as the wifey doesn't find out where all of the money is going.

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
I've seen that regurgitated so many times it just crazy.

1908's and 1909's withstood on the order of 100,000psi proof loading.

I fail to see how a 45-50,000 psi .35 whelen round is going to cause it to fail under normal conditions. Hell, the .30 Mauser and for that matter the 7x57 isn't much different in pressure than that, and I've never heard of masses of Argentine and brazilian mausers needing to be scrapped in service...

Sir, I believe you have no idea what pressures these cartridges operate at nor at what pressure proof rounds operate. 100K psi is way more than a proof load's pressures. And the Whelen operates about 10,000 psi higher than you stated.

Not according to my Hodgdon and Nosler tables, but whatever dude...

During the Second World War the load for the 8 x 57 mm was a 198-grain bullet at 2,575 fps yielding a pressure of around 49,500 psi.

DWM originally buitl their receivers to handle a normal operating pressure of 42,650 psi for 8x57. There was a factor of safety added too, byt the way.

here's a link to the Hodgdon info:
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/35whel.php

the low is 42,300 psi CUP and the max load is 50,000 CUP.

I trust you have sources to back up your BS opinion?

I'll also add, I don't have my Richard Law reference in front of me to quote the actual proof load pressure, but I do know that the Mauser 96 (a weaker action) was proof loaded at 70,000 psi CUP. I imagine the K98k was proofed higher since the 8x57 is a higher pressure round and the M98 action is a stronger designed action.

Here's more interesting info:

The 1909 Argentine was built to the same spec as the 1908 and the WW1 era DWM Gew98.

Hodgdon lists 180gr 8x57 pressures as having a low of 36,100 (aneamic load for Gew88's) and a high of 49,400 - or basically .35 whelen levels.

I had a pristine 1908 action that was to be the basis of a custom rifle. I had the receiver surface-ground by a Guild 'smith and sent by him to Blanchard for heat treating. When I finally got around to having it barreled, I discovered the receiver was warped. So much so that an action mandrel could not be screwed into it.

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
I've seen that regurgitated so many times it just crazy.

1908's and 1909's withstood on the order of 100,000psi proof loading.

I fail to see how a 45-50,000 psi .35 whelen round is going to cause it to fail under normal conditions. Hell, the .30 Mauser and for that matter the 7x57 isn't much different in pressure than that, and I've never heard of masses of Argentine and brazilian mausers needing to be scrapped in service...

Sir, I believe you have no idea what pressures these cartridges operate at nor at what pressure proof rounds operate. 100K psi is way more than a proof load's pressures. And the Whelen operates about 10,000 psi higher than you stated.

Not according to my Hodgdon and Nosler tables, but whatever dude...

During the Second World War the load for the 8 x 57 mm was a 198-grain bullet at 2,575 fps yielding a pressure of around 49,500 psi.

DWM originally buitl their receivers to handle a normal operating pressure of 42,650 psi for 8x57. There was a factor of safety added too, byt the way.

here's a link to the Hodgdon info:
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/35whel.php

the low is 42,300 psi CUP and the max load is 50,000 CUP.

I trust you have sources to back up your BS opinion?

Claven,

The 35 Whelen operates at 52,000 CUP which is higher than the 50,000 CUP the .30-06 operates at. The .30-06 is also listed at 60,000 PSI. It is apparent that you have no clue that PSI and CUP are two entirely different units of measurement. Thus, even utilising your WWII pressure for the 8x57 of near 50,000 PSI you are still trying to compare 52,000 CUP for the Whelen with 50,000 PSI for the 8x57. The Whelen's PSI ratig would be closer to between 60,000 and 62,000 PSI.

Proofs loads typically range from 130% to 140% of max average pressue. So, for the 50,000 psi you quote for the 8x57 a proof load would be closer to 70,000 psi, not the 100,000psi+ you initially claimed.

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
I'll also add, I don't have my Richard Law reference in front of me to quote the actual proof load pressure, but I do know that the Mauser 96 (a weaker action) was proof loaded at 70,000 psi CUP. I imagine the K98k was proofed higher since the 8x57 is a higher pressure round and the M98 action is a stronger designed action.

Plese note, CUP and PSI are NOT the same thing. It might make your arguements better if you took the time to learn the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
I'll also add, I don't have my Richard Law reference in front of me to quote the actual proof load pressure, but I do know that the Mauser 96 (a weaker action) was proof loaded at 70,000 psi CUP. I imagine the K98k was proofed higher since the 8x57 is a higher pressure round and the M98 action is a stronger designed action.

Plese note, CUP and PSI are NOT the same thing. It might make your arguements better if you took the time to learn the difference.

Could you be more arrogant if you tried?

From the Lyman manual:

quote:

Before about the 1960's the only measurement system we had for
chamber pressure was the copper crusher method. Up until that time, what we now call
CUP was commonly known by two different names: CUP and PSI. The two were used
practically interchangeably.

Direct PSI with piezo-electrics was only invented in the 1960's, so when you see WW2 era pressure stats, it's in copper crush CUP.

MODERN data such as found in the Hodgdon manual are listed in PSI. I thought that was perfectly clear in my post, but I guess condescending a-holes might not understand that - not that I'm referring to you or anything.

so when you compare the CUP measure ment from the Hodgdon manual for .35 Whelen (42.3-52K CUP as opposed to their psi measurement) to the WW2 pressure rating of 49.5 psi (measured using the 1940's era copper crush measurement - making it a CUP reading) you do get direct correlation.

Please go piss up a rope.

something else before we totalyl hi-jack this thread Mr. Poleax, please go to this Hodgdon website and look up the following calibers:

7x57
8x57
.30-06
.35 whelen

Notice anything strange? Both .30-06 AND .35 whelen list the max load pressure at 50,000 CUP. And believe me, this is a direct comparison with modern data in CUP, not PSI.

Now look at 7x57 and 8x57. 7x57 max pressure is 46K CUP and max for 8x57 is 49.7K CUP.

The hard copy manual I have says these loads were developped in the standard military Mauser.

I doubt, for liability reasons, that Hodgdon would issue load data only valid for Mausers that have been re-heat treated.

I also submit that given the factor of safety built into the military Mauser and the proof loads being significantly higher than the service round pressures, 50K CUP for the Whelen is not significantly different than the 49.7K CUP of the 8mm round. otherwise guys would be blowing up actions on every second range trip...

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
..........
Could you be more arrogant if you tried?

............

Please go piss up a rope.

Better arrogant than ignorant.

Please address the 100,000 psi proof loads you so addamantly adhere to having been used. Where is your quote for that? What Hornandy chooses to load the 35 Whelen to and what the SAAMI max is are two entirely different matters.

Can anyone here please quote me the SAAMI max pressure data for the .25-06, .270 win, .280 Rem, 30-06, 8mm-06, 338-06, and 35 Whelen.

Also please show a link to where the information came from...

25-06: 63,000 psi
270: 52,000 cup
280: 60,000 psi
30-06: 60,000 psi
8mm 06: no SAAMI limit
338-06: no SAAMI limit
35 Whelen: 52,000 cup

This is from Accurate Arms Load Guide #1 1994. They "estimated" 60,000 psi for the 8mm-06 and the 338-06. Why they show cup's and not psi for the 270 and the 35 Whelen, I don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
25-06: 63,000 psi 61,000 psi
270: 52,000 cup 62,000 psi
280: 60,00 psi 58,000 psi
30-06: 60,000 psi 58,500 psi
8mm 06: no SAAMI limit
338-06: no SAAMI limit
35 Whelen: 52,000 cup 50,400 cup

This is from Accurate Arms Load Guide #1 1994. They "estimated" 60,000 psi for the 8mm-06 and the 338-06. Why they show cup's and not psi for the 270 and the 35 Whelen, I don't know.

I stuck in bolded data as the highest pressure found in the alliant manual FWIW...

I went to SAAMI's website and found nothing of value.

Again, I see no practical difference between 49,700 CUP and 50,000 CUP given the design factor of safety on a Mauser action.

I quoted the Whelen max loads from a reputable manual. If Poleaxe wants to routinely exceed that pressure by more than 10,000psi then perhaps he does need to re-heat treat all his actions, as well as ensure his life insurance policy is paid up, covers firearms accidents, and that he wears proper eye protection.

I, on the other hand, will heed the advice of the various smokeless powder companies and not grossly overload my Whelen rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
Again, I see no practical difference between 49,700 CUP and 50,000 CUP given the design factor of safety on a Mauser action.

I quoted the Whelen max loads from a reputable manual. If Poleaxe wants to routinely exceed that pressure by more than 10,000psi then perhaps he does need to re-heat treat all his actions, as well as ensure his life insurance policy is paid up, covers firearms accidents, and that he wears proper eye protection.

I, on the other hand, will heed the advice of the various smokeless powder companies and not grossly overload my Whelen rounds.

In addition to being unable to grasp the simple fact that psi & cup are not the same, you have a serious reading comprehension problem.

You were the one taliking about 100,000 psi proof loads, not me. You asked for verification of max pressures yet when asked to provide some source for this 100,000 psi proof load you dance around the issue.

And FYI, the max pressures shown for a load in a manual do not necessarily correspond with the SAAMI max. Some data presented in the manuals routinely falls up to 6000 psi short of the SAAMI max.

Claven and Poleax

You two guys are going to end up having a stroke pretty soon. Try and relax a little bit.

quote:

Originally posted by Poleax:

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
Again, I see no practical difference between 49,700 CUP and 50,000 CUP given the design factor of safety on a Mauser action.

I quoted the Whelen max loads from a reputable manual. If Poleaxe wants to routinely exceed that pressure by more than 10,000psi then perhaps he does need to re-heat treat all his actions, as well as ensure his life insurance policy is paid up, covers firearms accidents, and that he wears proper eye protection.

I, on the other hand, will heed the advice of the various smokeless powder companies and not grossly overload my Whelen rounds.

In addition to being unable to grasp the simple fact that psi & cup are not the same, you have a serious reading comprehension problem.

You were the one taliking about 100,000 psi proof loads, not me. You asked for verification of max pressures yet when asked to provide some source for this 100,000 psi proof load you dance around the issue.

And FYI, the max pressures shown for a load in a manual do not necessarily correspond with the SAAMI max. Some data presented in the manuals routinely falls up to 6000 psi short of the SAAMI max.

You, sir, are an idiot. Period.
If anyone doesn't understand pressure, it's certainly not me. I'm a mechanical engineer in real life. I work with CUP and PSI every day.

I told you the 100K psi was speculative based on M96 pressures. If you actually read before you typed you'd notice I said that already.

And frankly, I don't see any SAAMI max pressure quotes from you from reliable sources. I should think reloading manuals are more accurate than some fictional number you say corresponds to a standard you can't or won't substantiate.

Whatever. Have fun blowing yourself up and ruining good actions with your overpowered Whelen loads. Assuming you even own a Whelen, which is probably doubtful from someone so full of self import and internet bravado.

Anyhow, I'm off to kill a Miller and avoid the stroke 22WRF is worried I might suffer. I suggest you use the time out to unstick your head from your arse.

Put a cork in it!