I have been wondering for some time, why is there so much discussion about customizing certain surplus actions? Why not just start with an FN or Model 70 Classic for example? What with all the surface grinding, re- surface hardening, new bottom metal, extractor recontouring for magnums, new magazine boxes, and the like, it would seem to be a shorter, less expensive route to start with an action which has some of these features already in place. Not to mention these newer actions are made with more modern steels. I am really looking for an objective evaluation and am trying to leave tradition and emotion in their proper perspective. I also don't want to get into nit picking about C vs. H cuts in the receiver or thumb cuts in mil surps.

I have several receivers which fall into all of the above named categories and am about to start a project. Just trying to get a little in the way of objective input. I realize there may an approach I haven't already considered. Thanks in advance.

Geronimo

Have built four rifles on Mauser actions in recent years: A 9,3x62 on a VZ.24, a 338-06 on a commercial FN action, a .416 Aagaard on a commercial FN action, and a .458 AR on a Parker-Hale action.

The VZ.24 action was inexpensive. The Parker-Hale action was not too expensive. The two FNs were pretty expensive.

The results have excellent in all cases with the FNs coming out the nicest. Takes a lot of work to get the military actions done,

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I also don't want to get into nit picking about C vs. H cuts in the receiver or thumb cuts in mil surps.

Not really interested in the finer points then?

Remember, cheaper is not necessarily better, just easier.

Since you are not interested in a technical discussion, basically it comes down to this: You want a custom rifle, which do you prefer the looks of, a customised military model or a commercial?

Me, I prefer a good mislurp worked over properly. This from both a mechanical & aesthetic point of view.

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Originally posted by z1r:Me, I prefer a good mislurp worked over properly. This from both a mechanical & aesthetic point of view.

I'd have to second that

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Not really interested in the finer points then?

Remember, cheaper is not necessarily better, juest easier.

No not that. It is just that I am already quite aware of these differences and their theoretical advantages, as you can surmise by the fact that I mentioned them in my post. I am also of the position that neither of these advantages/ disadvantages, on it's own merits, carries enough weight to sway my decision. If there are other factors in favor of the military actions please feal free to advise.

Geronimo

You're either Old School or you're not. A mill surplus action well done is worth more to me than a new barreled action

I think some enjoy defying the old saying about "not able to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse..."
Keep in mind that the operative word here is "surplus" which usually means military background and having a great deal of hand workmanship, skilled labor, lots of time and money lavished on the previous "grunt gun" and creating a working piece of gun art is just a strong desire for some folks. Is it practical, probably not for modern bolt actions, most anyway, will work just fine and do not require all the time, money, effort to do so. If you got the bucks, time, and desire, have at it for only ones budget and imagination are limits.

maybe you're looking for a CZ, It has all the aspects of the mauser in something newer?

guess it boils down to "it depends"
largely its preference

I'd go broke using commercial actions. Without the all the work of grinding and stoning, converting magboxes and triggerguards, reworking feed rails, and etc it wouldn't take years to complete a rifle. At that rate, I'd either be broke or in divorce court.
-Don

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maybe you're looking for a CZ, It has all the aspects of the mauser in something newer?

I think you missed part of my initial statement. I have a VZ-24 action, a model 70 Classic action in standard mag guise, and an FN standard action.

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guess it boils down to "it depends"
largely its preference

Thanks Jeffe, kinda what I have suspected, but wasn't sure. I understand all that about Old World craftsmen and such. But if you are about to sink a few grand into a project, you will have "New World" craftsmen doing the same types of things to that starter action.

Geronimo

I have done both commercial and miltary actions. I like both. Certainly if you go whole hog with the military action you are spending quite a lot. But You can use the military bottom trigger guard and solid steel floor plate.
I mean that the cool thing about customs. You only have to do wht you want to do.
I have a 35 whelen built on a ERMA 98. I went cheap on it I think it cost me 600 bucks to have my smith do the job. It works just fine.
Won't get much atention at the range though...tj3006

like I said you're either OLD SCHOOL or you're not!! But most of all you need to know You're limitations.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
I have done both commercial and miltary actions. I like both. Certainly if you go whole hog with the military action you are spending quite a lot. But You can use the military bottom trigger guard and solid steel floor plate.
I mean that the cool thing about customs. You only have to do wht you want to do.
I have a 35 whelen built on a ERMA 98. I went cheap on it I think it cost me 600 bucks to have my smith do the job. It works just fine.
Won't get much atention at the range though...tj3006

How doesm you'r period 35 whelen Rifle do? Mine is A.I. verson and it shoots sub MOA

Geronimo, In my mind, you've answered your own question. With a milsurp action there is grinding, polishing, recontouring, and various sculpting. In other words it's a blank canvas, with lots of possibilities. It allows a "gunmaker" to exhibit his skills, and create a unique piece of work. All modern actions are made with one thing in mind, profit. Corners are cut, features are removed and what they end up with is an action that is cheap to manufacture, not necessarily cheap to customize. At least thats my two cents.

Chad

It is kinda like automobiles. Some of us would like a nice street rod built with every thing a new car has but we have the classic looks. I can have a nice car that will do everything for say $45,000 or I can spend $75,000 on a streetrod that will do the same thing. Mine would be an individual thing that is pleasing to me. If we built them with money in mind and a few other things we would all have CZs or some other stock piece.
Butch

Hello guys

To me the "blank canvas" explanation is spot on. Those who take this option are working on something that will become a piece of art (at least to them, only a few very talented folks are great artists . . . but that doesn't have to stop the rest of us from trying our hand) compared with those who have a more utilitarian "tool based" approach to their rifles.

Cheers

I guess I'm a little surprised at the answers. I look at it this way.

For a full blown custom most go with new bottom metal so the bottom metal is a non factor.

Most also want a forged reciever and mausers are popular. A milsurp mauser is a great foundation for a something your going to totally redo anyway.

Now there are some wonderful actions, mausers and pre 64 style winchesters, from custom makers which are a great starting point but are extremely expensive.

So I guess many go with a pre 64 winchester or older mauser for the classic route (my choice) and if they are going to spend more go the full custom action route. The middle of the road, expense wise, get left behind.

I have been sporterizing Mausers for ~7 years, and have finished a few and have ~60 in process. I wanted to go deer hunting. When I get done sporterizing a Mauser it is worth ~$200. Given all the tools, materials, shop I had to build, and time, it would have been cheaper just to pay $10k each for a dozen rifles. But that would be like paying someone to take my vacation for me. It is a labor of love.

quote:

I have been wondering for some time, why is there so much discussion about customizing certain surplus actions?

I think it is something in the culture that started off with being frugal and morphed into a Frankenstein.
Surplus military rifles were/are often the least expensive route to something that would go bang and kill a deer. But often the owner eventully wanted a rifle that offered the cosmetics and features and "status" of a commercial rifle. So the modifications began. There were 100 million 98 Mausers manufactured and they used to be cheap. They use the 8X57 round which had the very standard 12mm case head diameter. Model 98 Mausers are easy to rebarrel to many other 12mm case head cartridges. Many versions are finely machined. Eventually the use of the M98 got more expensive than the cost of a new factory rifle. So the M98 usage got twisted into the custom market where it is "reasonable" to spend more money than it will ever bring because the owner wants something his way.

The same thing happened to a lot of High Wall Winchesters that were converted to varmint rifles.

Now there are some folks looking to rehab certain Mausers back to original configration. Some versions are so rare that they bring more cash in their original state than they ever would as a custom rifle.

There is also the factor of being limited. There are no new "old school" Mauser actions at any price. So the scarcity plays a part, at least for the premier military actions.

But custom is as custom does; D'Arcy Echols takes a brand spanking new Winchestr Classic and performs something like 85 specific modifications for a Legend rifle. So what is the economy derived from a NIB action in that case?

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Originally posted by Geronomo:
I have been wondering for some time, why is there so much discussion about customizing certain surplus actions? Why not just start with an FN or Model 70 Classic for example? What with all the surface grinding, re- surface hardening, new bottom metal, extractor recontouring for magnums, new magazine boxes, and the like, it would seem to be a shorter, less expensive route to start with an action which has some of these features already in place. Not to mention these newer actions are made with more modern steels. I am really looking for an objective evaluation and am trying to leave tradition and emotion in their proper perspective. I also don't want to get into nit picking about C vs. H cuts in the receiver or thumb cuts in mil surps.

I have several receivers which fall into all of the above named categories and am about to start a project. Just trying to get a little in the way of objective input. I realize there may an approach I haven't already considered. Thanks in advance.

Geronimo

If you need to ask the question you may want to ask yourself if you really want a custom rifle in the first place. For me the sole purpose of owning a custom rifle is to get exactly what I want, not to save money or work. On occasion that means a military action and other times not. I would strongly suggest you thumb though the pages of gunbroker.com sometime. They are filled with custom rifles people tried to save money on (broken dreams smashed on the rocks of reality. ) Most of the time when you try to save money on a custom rifle it shows in the end product. For some people that's fine, for others the whole effort just represents wasted time and cash.

Don't discount tradition and emotion! These have more bearing than anything else in the decision process. Most any factory rifles sold today will work just as well as any custom for putting meat in the freezer or a set of horns on a board. A custom rifle only enhances the hunt.

You say you're about to start a custom rifle project. I would step back and decide what I wanted the finished product to be and move in that direction, be it a military , commercial or custom built action. When I look at a nice custom Winchester M70 I'm not moved the same way I am when I see a nice custom Milsurp Mauser. If it's a Winchester that makes your heart pump, by all means use that but don't pick it because it's an easier action to use. I've done it a few times and will say there is nothing more satisfying than getting exactly what you want (or pretty damn close) in the finished product.


Terry

No doubt wonderful things can be done with the better Mauser military actions but there seems little reason not to start with a commercial FN and get a couple of legs up on the modifications you would want anyway.

Granted it saves some surface grinding but regardless of that, the touches that make a custom unique are common even to FN:

bolt handle
built-up bolt release
tapered tang and/or tang safety
drop-box and/or straddle floor plate
scope-friendly safety or receiver sight/bolt-peep/whatever
sculpted trigger guard
fitted scope bases
custom trigger or double set trigger
blind action screw hole


By no means a complete list.

I have to agree with Tiggertate, I like FN's but mostly as collector/shooters. I customized my share and as Tigger said, most folks wanted the handle replaced, better bottom metal, new trigger, etc. When you look at things that way, about the only step you save is recontouring the rear bridge. Most of my clients wanted the action surface ground so that sort of negated the rear bridge savings too.

I suppose it all comes down to your definition of custom. if all you really want to do is stick a barrel on and stick that in an aftermakert stock, then yes, you are better off starting with a commercial variant.

If however, your tastes are more discriminating, then I would bypass the FN unless you are one of those that does not like the thumbcut.

And you can always weld up the thumb notch on the mill surplus actions like I did on my 1909 arg. action, Note the safety, Hand made.

My old mauser whelen shoots prety well actually. Its not Moa very often but not far from it either.
i shoot the speer 250 grain hot core over RL 15 and its about 2600 fps...tj3006

Dear Geronimo:

I started out with a newer Sako action in 1999 as my first custom rifle, then CRF Winchester Model 70's by 2001, and later I started putting military Mauser's together myself.

I never ground an 1898 receiver, just cut off the bolt, adjusted feed rails and occassionally lengthened and/or widened the magazine box. But I did add the Dakota 3 position safety and a Timney trigger.

Now, I use the original military trigger, Leupold and Redfield one piece bases made for the military charger and old Buehler safeties, but still use stainless steel barrels.

My finale will be next year, back to chrome moly barrels in 8x57, 9.3x62 and some 458 of sorts, sporting NECG front sights and old Lyman 48 peep sights. Others will keep their scopes.

For me, there is just something elegant about a properly done 1898 military Mauser, that my Remingtons, Weatherbys, Sakos, and new Winchesters just didn't quite match. The pre-64 Model 70's came real close, but after putting together a Mauser, well, once you do it, you probably can't go back.

Ever drive a Pierce Arrow or something similar from the 1920's or 1930's? If you have, you will know what I mean.

For me, the hunting gets even better carting around a custom Mauser with that pre-WW-II action.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis