Testing the waters here and am looking for feedback. A gunsmithing school (ie. tight budget) is interested in having us (Sound Metal Products) take the parts and pieces right off the machine, include some instructions and sell at a pretty attracive price for the DIY er.

We are a little concerned about the end result, but plan to mark them "K" which would denote an unfinished kit.


I think we can be comfortable with that...whaddaya think?

sounds like an idea - #1 is it sufficiently profitable? #2 is it a teaching aid? #3 if it is an open market product will you have partial liability?
chances are if it is a open market product it will need marketing, not just through a school, and if it is chances are the DIY interested will probably have skills enuf to finish it

i think.. heck yeah ... and if mauser length .. leave the hole undrilled, for mauser, enfield, and springfields.

Providing a limited number to students enrolled at a particular gunsmithing school should be fine. Sell them to the school (not directly to the students) under an express agreement that the school can only provide or resell the parts to enrolled gunsmithing students as a teaching aid.

Selling unfinished parts to the DIY crowd is a bad idea for a number of business reasons. Give me a call and I'll spell them out to you.

It would be quite nice if those kits will be possible to buy out of USA too. The Customs fees are so high that it´s no sense to buy ready magazines from US to Europe.

I believe I would sell them under a different brand name. I can just see Bubba showing up at the range showing off his "Weibe" bottom metal that he just finished.

John

+1 to GASGUNNER

Knew a guy once, who used to sell quality pre-owned motocycles.

He used to put on the bottom of what you call a licence plate "Another Fine Motorcycle From XXXXX Motorcycles".

Until one day, in a queue of traffic, he pulled up behind one that was ten years old and looked likea wreck!

So if you do sell for the DIY market don't put your name anywhere except on the packaging that gets thrown away!

Kits to the schools and/or FFL holders sounds like win-win. There's probably more margin in selling thousands of cartridge-specific dimensioned drawings to the DIY crowd than a hundred or two rough-finished bottoms (that would be two per person; one for the DYI guy and a replacement to send to a qualified 'smith after the first one is ruined).

I think it is a GREAT idea. With one suggestion. Do NOT sell it to the school. Sell it directly to, and ONLY to the student. When I attended the Colorado School of Trades they marked everything up 30-40%. Which is fine, they are a business, but they really push buying their stuff and not using anything else. (ie, Howa 1500)

This I am sure opens a whole nother can of worms, but this is just my opinion. Sell it to the students.

You found that as well. When were you there? Robert sure did everything he could to milk every penny out of the students he could.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:
I think it is a GREAT idea. With one suggestion. Do NOT sell it to the school. Sell it directly to, and ONLY to the student. When I attended the Colorado School of Trades they marked everything up 30-40%. Which is fine, they are a business, but they really push buying their stuff and not using anything else. (ie, Howa 1500)

This I am sure opens a whole nother can of worms, but this is just my opinion. Sell it to the students.

I have heard that from more than one student whose path I have crossed.

Sell directly to the student, but have the student produce proof that he is actually enrolled in the school. This prevents profiteering and solidifies the thought of it being a teaching aid! That would also help to promote the trade.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Selling unfinished parts to the DIY crowd is a bad idea for a number of business reasons. Give me a call and I'll spell them out to you.

Please share with the rest of us. BTW, I'd consider buying one...

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Selling unfinished parts to the DIY crowd is a bad idea for a number of business reasons. Give me a call and I'll spell them out to you.

Please share with the rest of us. BTW, I'd consider buying one...

X2.

Some of us DIYers are capable & have, @ least in my case, a lot more time than $$$$.

I DIY kit would save a lot of time cutting, welding & filing to get proper length, hinged floorplate bottom metal for DIY custom Mauser projects on a tight budget.

When I was at CST I bought as little as possible from the school, we bought from Brownell's at FFL pricing.
I would buy a kit.

Make them available to everyone, and after someone gets one in the rough and finish's it, they'll have a little respect for the amount of time, and skill it takes to complete it, just mark it some how so everyone knows it was sold in the rough.

Its risky to your name to sell DIY kits to the general public, especially with a name like Duane Wiebe. Cool idea, but any quality less than what Duane is known for and it is a bad mis-representation of ones skills if it is said to be his work.

But at the same time as a student it would be pretty cool to get my hands on an unfinished kit. Lots of ideas...

Duane, I would not sell the kits with your name on them for the reasons people above stated. If I was you, I would not want the potential reputation abuse when someone screwed it up and blamed you.

Speaking of projects, how is the Model 70 follower project?

Thanks, Genlemen...you've certainly given us something to seriously think about. Larrys..we have followers..pleas send a PM of what you need

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I think we can be comfortable with that...whaddaya think?

You have an exceptional reputation. I would not risk it for a few dollars made off of a trade school deal.
No matter how nice your machining is there are always knot heads that do not understand how to take the tool marks out and leave a surface without waves.

Even if you mark it someone can always tig it up.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

I think we can be comfortable with that...whaddaya think?

You have an exceptional reputation. I would not risk it for a few dollars made off of a trade school deal.
No matter how nice your machining is there are always knot heads that do not understand how to take the tool marks out and leave a surface without waves.

Even if you mark it someone can always tig it up.

Thanks SR4759...as you know, I really respect your input, as well as all the others who have chimed in. We would not have asked for opinions if we were business-wise in the first place. Pretty much shit-canned the idea! Thanks again Duane and Steve

It's the old story..."The road to He** is paved with good intentions". You had a very good idea and good intentions by Good People, but Good People are bacon and eggs to the Bad People... sad to say.

Luck

Duane, are the Mauser floorplates you sell now ready for bluing or do they need finish polishing? Thanks!

MK160

Why limit sales to just schools? That is a VERY small market. Extend sales and increase profits by selling to the general public with FFL holders getting the customary dealer discount.

quote:

Originally posted by MK160:
Duane, are the Mauser floorplates you sell now ready for bluing or do they need finish polishing? Thanks!

MK160

We have recently standardized on a 150 grit polish. So...I'd take it to about 320 for rust blue and 400 for caustic. We will polish to 400 for extra charge, but sort of adcvise against it because of the inevitable scratches that occur during inletting

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
Why limit sales to just schools? That is a VERY small market. Extend sales and increase profits by selling to the general public with FFL holders getting the customary dealer discount.

We may be slow, but we figure about an hour in assembly, fitting, polish. If we could eliminate that hour, we'd happily pass on the savings just to not deal with it.

We just can't come up with a reasonable solution.. lots of darn good craftsmen out there and lots of bubbas. We don't want the bubbas fooling around with our bottom metal if we can prevent it

Can you do something to make it distinctive from the finished product you sell? Maybe have the floorplate hinge drilled at a different distance or how about milling the hinge to a different dimension, or possible just grinding certain corners round where your finished ones are square? Or just your earlier suggestion of stamping or marking the metal differently. Could you simply make any dimension thinner?

Personally, I see the concern of counterfeiting (for lack of a better term) somewhat of a non issue, just make a distinctive enough difference that someone is going to need to have some skill and chances are if they can hide it was from a kit they are going to be proud enough of their own work so they will readily say they did the finish work on your kit.

Oh and one more thing is I'd just offer it as an addition product to your line, you can have a separate pricing to schools and registered students if you want but like a few of the previous posters I think there are enough people out there interested in doing the fit and finish work themselves to make it a profitable offering.

Personally I think concerns of damage to Duane's reputation as a result of a poorly finished kit are overstated. There are all kinds of kits available out there, for things as complex as cars and airplanes. I have never heard of a kit maker being blamed for somebody putting a poor finish on their product. And if somebody did do a poor job and tried to pass it off as a factory turn key model, those in the know would quickly sniff it out.

In order for there to be any negative impact the following would have to occur:

1. It would have to be finished poorly enough to fall short of Duane's workmanship skills, while not so bad as to be an obvious "bubba" job. In other words, somebody would have to actually believe that it was Duane's (poor) work.

2. The bottom metal would have to be positively identifiable as being produced by Duane, without being identifiable as being a kit.

3. Whoever saw this work would have to know who Duane was and what kind of work he does. This familiarity would mean that he would be aware enough to know that Duane manufactured custom bottom metal, while simultaneously ignorant of the fact that Duane also produced rough kits for sale.

4. In order for this person to have a negative effect on Duane's business or reputation they would have to be interested in doing business with Duane themselves, or be in a position to influence those who would. Those who might be influenced would similarly need to be both familiar with his work, while ignorant of the existence of amatuer finished kits.

Note that not just one, but ALL FOUR of the above would have to happen. Anybody want to estimate and calculate the probabilities and their actual economic effect?

A familiarity with Duanes work and a desire to do business with him pretty much presumes that a person will not be easily fooled into believing that a poorly finished kit is the handiwork of Duane.

I don't think marking the kits is the answer either simply because by their very nature the markings will likely be removed in the finishing process. (and if there are no markings, how do you even know that it's Duanes's?!) The only real way to protect the integrity of the Duane finished products is to uniquely brand or serialize the fully completed version.

For those who truly believe that this is a foolish business decision I invite you to rationalize your opinion and provide an example. As for myself, I appreciate options and am intrigued at the possibility of saving some labor costs and getting a quality product.

I think this is low risk, go for it Duane!

Duane, you have a PM.

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For those who truly believe that this is a foolish business decision

Great names in merchandizing do not have sales and do not lower the price of their products. One that comes to mind is Swarovski. Another is Mont Blanc. I don't think Rolex does either. Purdey? Holland and Holland? Ivo and Tulio Fabbri?

If you lower the price for some, then everybody will expect a lower price.

Kevin, Guess what? I agree.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Great names in merchandizing do not have sales and do not lower the price of their products. One that comes to mind is Swarovski. Another is Mont Blanc. I don't think Rolex does either. Purdey? Holland and Holland? Ivo and Tulio Fabbri?

If you lower the price for some, then everybody will expect a lower price.

I'm not sure I get your point... This has nothing to do with putting on a sale or lowering the price of a finished product, and it certainly has nothing to do with lowering it for some but not others. It has to do with a decision as to whether or not to offer it in an unfinished form.

Blackburn sold two versions, finished and unfinished. What killed him was not the unfinished products but his business practices.

Kev, you're a huge supporter of Ted, was he wrong all these years lowering his prices?

You may looking for advice from the wrong crowd. I suspect few of us are experienced with making and selling small volume high quality products. You might ask Wisner.

I would assume you are in this business to try to sell as many units as possible. If you can sell parts or unfinished units with the same profit margin as the finished, why wouldn't you? By offering variations (parts only, assembled but not finished, or fully finished), you will appeal to a larger market. It will be profitable if you price it right. Your sales will tell you if you have the pricing correct.

Barrel makers don't seem too have a problem selling unfinished product right along with complete threaded and chambered barrels. The issue of labeling may be important for completed and finished products, but not for unfinished parts.

Good luck, I think we all want this part of your business to be successful.

Roger

A thought...Dont make it about low cost or "an easy option".

Why not provoke thought, learning, and imagination? Sell a bottom metal kit to gunsmtihing school students but make it vastly oversized so it looks nothing like a Wiebe bottum metal and will allow students to shape it; have all the critical dimensions correct for certain actions.

Maybe have a competition between schools to see who comes up with the coolest idea? Granted there isn't a ton you can do with bottom metal, but you never know.

One thing I would like to point out. The bottom metal that we sell is not finished. There is still some file work and polishing to do. The Bubba's can still mess them up if they want to. SMP is in the business of selling parts for custom rifles. What is done with them after they leave the shop we have no control over. Duane has a reputation for turning out a first class finished product and I hope that SMP has the reputation for turning out a product that can become a part of a first class rifle. But as I said before we can not control what is done after they leave the shop. This holds true for our standard finish or if we were to sell them in kit form.

Even though I majored in Accounting in college and had to take some economics courses as a result, its been a long damn time.

Nevertheless, I do recall a few lectures on supply and demand price elasticity. I think the measurement is a ratio, or a function of a related pair, and can be measured by normal algebraic means if the function in linear, and of course you would need calculus if the function is nonlinear (i.e the derivative of the function).

Stated more simply, there is a sweet spot, somewhere in there, where one will make the most profit, at a certain price level, and a certain level of sales. One may be able to sell more units at a lower price, but may not earn as much money even if the amount of units sold increased. By the same token, one can ask too high a price, and not earn as much money because demand goes down and not as many units are sold.

Its really none of my business what anybody does. I am just an observer. But I would have to say, from somewhat closely observing the bottom metal business, that it is a damn tough business.

Customers desire so many different variations of bottom metal. Just go on a website such as this one and post that you are going to start manufacturing bottom metal. You will get a number of posts from people asking you to make for this model, and that model, and yet another model; with this feature, and that feature, and on and on into the night.

The trouble is that it is not economical to make these units one up. They have to be made in small runs in order to recoup set up and specialized tooling costs for each different unit. Becasue one has to make small runs one will have inventory sitting on the shelves that sometimes sits there for long periods of time before its sold, if ever.

If the only business you have is that of making bottom metal, you are going to run into trouble. You need to keep your machines running in order to pay the over head and make a living. For many years Ted Blackburn was the ONLY GAME IN TOWN, which meant he had large demand, and was able to make a decent living. Then he started to get competition, which caused some problems. But the worst problem, which we all face, is age. When you hit a certain age you may not want to work as hard. Now that he has grown older Ted has tried to sell his business for well over two years now. Any takers??? I didn't think so.

Mr. Wiebe and Mr. Button of course have other business that keeps them going. I think that some of the other bottom metal makers (Sunny Hill, etc.) do as well. And that is what you have to have to make a go of it.

People that offer a premium product in the custom rifle business (one that can command a premium price) have worked a long long time to build up a name and build up the quality of the product.

Why in the world would they want to offer anything less that what they have worked so hard to build up after all of these years, unless it makes sense from an economic standpoint? Even though the Declaration of Independence stated that all men are created equal that is about as far as it goes. The rest is up to each of us. There are many economic levels in our society, and we are blessed with the notion that at least theoretically each of us can move up to a level where we can afford to purchase what we desire if we choose to do the things necessary.

By the same token, people who make things and sell those things have to determine what level they wish to sell in. Do you want to offer filet mignon in a nice place for $45 or do you want to offer a hamburger for a buck and a quarter in a dive?

If you started out offering the hamburger for a buck and a quarter, and are now offering the filet for $45, you can't look back and take care of those customers that want the hamburger. You have to cater to your targeted market.

If your targeted market purchases premium products at a premium price, you are going to piss off your premium customers if you start selling that same product elsewhere at a lower price, unfinished or not, in my humble opinion.

EDIT: I should not have said that becasue I don't know what other people think. What I should have said was that if I purchased a premium product at the premium price and then found out that the premium product was being offered at a lower price, regardless of whether it was finished or not, I would be PISSED.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
EDIT: I should not have said that becasue I don't know what other people think. What I should have said was that if I purchased a premium product at the premium price and then found out that the premium product was being offered at a lower price, regardless of whether it was finished or not, I would be PISSED.

Not at all trying to be argumentative, but why would you be "pissed"? It is not the same product.

it is too the same product in an unfinished state. Companies that make premium products do not sell them in an unfinished state, and do not unload their seconds and thirds and fourths, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
it is too the same product in an unfinished state. Companies that make premium products do not sell them in an unfinished state, and do not unload their seconds and thirds and fourths, etc.

How about Dakota, to name just one? Lenard Brownell, Jerry Fisher, James Wisner, etc etc.

What Montea6b said.

Duane, I think you'd be overlooking a fine opportunity to make some more profit AND to get your name out in front of more folks in a positive way if you didn't offer the kits and parts. Given your ethics and fabrication expertise, I cannot think of a single negative unless you miscalculate cash flow.
Good luck, Joe