Am wondering where the term "English Walnut" came from for Juglans Regia and when it started. I grew up as a gun crank with the expressions "'French", "Circassian", sometimes "European". Reading Whelen, Keith, OConnor, etc., right up through and past mid 20th Century you do not encounter "English". In fact my impression is that it is an artifact of perhaps the last twenty or maybe thirty years.

And as a matter of logic it offends me as scarcely any of it grows or ever grew in the British Isles.

Am thinking of starting a movement to rename it, maybe to, generically, "European". Or how about "King Walnut" or better, "Imperial Walnut".

And don't get me started on the dumb usage "ghost ring" !!!

I'm not a walnut expert or historian, but calling it "French" walnut seems no more correct than calling it "English" walnut. "European" is probably a better description, but does its range include parts of Asia as well?

All I know is that wood from Turkey looks different than wood from California. I suspect that there are several regions that grow walnut with somewhat unique and identifiable traits.

I think the name comes from the nuts of the tree, that are used for baking, candies, etc. They are called "English" walnuts, as opposed to "Black" walnuts.........Speaking of Black walnuts, I just ate a brownie, my wife made, that was chock full of black walnuts.......It don't get any better than that! Grant.

I think the root of the question is where did regia originate from. I believe it is the region around eastern Mediter and north Africa. This would be where the name should reside, but doesn't China, Iran, etc, also have juglans regia?

"english" "french" "turkish" "circassian"

THIN shelled walnuts./

claro, black, american..
thick shelled walnuts

jeffe

quote:

"english" "french" "turkish" "circassian"

THIN shelled walnuts./

claro, black, american..
thick shelled walnuts

Seems simple, but I also have wood from other species of Juglans such as J. rupestris and J. australis. There are 11 or 12 in all not to mention subspecies such as Claro. Where do these fall in? I do not have wood big enough for stock blanks, but I think australis gets large enough.

Dan, Juglans Regia was brought to Europe by Marco Polo and he got them from Asia. He was a favored trader of Ghenkis Khan and was allowed a lot of liberties (including staying alive) that a lot of other folks did not benefit from in Asia. At least that is what my wood books say.

Also from my understanding it was planted and grew over a most of Europe including England. Certainly not anything to get worked up over.

It always seemed to me that if it was lite colored, almost yellow with dark streaks, they referred to that as french.

Although I have never been super fond of the English walnut, I find its history amazing.

Did what I should have done before starting this discussion -- tried to look "English Walnut" up on ask.com and was thrown to the definition of "Persian Walnut" on Wikipedia:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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?Persian Walnut


Persian Walnut foliage and nuts
Scientific classification
Kingdom: Plantae

Division: Magnoliophyta

Class: Magnoliopsida

Order: Fagales

Family: Juglandaceae

Genus: Juglans

Species: J. regia


Binomial name
Juglans regia
L.
The Persian Walnut (Juglans regia) is a walnut native from the Balkans in southeast Europe east through southwest and central Asia and the Himalaya to southwest China.

It is a large deciduous tree attaining heights of 25-35 m, and a trunk up to 2 m diameter, commonly with a short trunk and broad crown, though taller and narrower in dense forest competition. It is a light-demanding species, requiring full sun to grow well. The bark is smooth silvery-grey, with scattered broad fissures with a rougher texture. Like all walnuts, the pith of the twigs contains air spaces. The leaves are alternate, 25-40 cm long, odd-pinnate with 5-9 leaflets, the largest leaflets the three at the apex, 10-18 cm long and 6-8 cm broad; the basal pair of leaflets much smaller, 5-8 cm long. The male flowers are in drooping catkins 5-10 cm long, the female flowers terminal, in clusters of two to five, ripening in the autumn into a fruit with a green, semi-fleshy husk and a brown corrugated nut. The whole fruit, including the husk, falls in autumn; the seed is large, with a relatively thin shell, and edible, with a rich flavour.

The Persian Walnut was introduced into western and northern Europe very early, by Roman times or earlier, and to the Americas by the 17th century. Important nut-growing regions include France, Greece, Bulgaria and Romania in Europe, China in Asia, California in North America and Chile in South America. It is cultivated extensively for its high quality nuts, eaten both fresh and pressed for their richly flavoured oil. The wood is of very high quality, similar to American Black Walnut, and is used to make furniture and rifle stocks.

The name Persian indicates its origins in Persia (southwest Asia); 'walnut' derives from the Germanic wal-, "foreign", recognising that it is not native in northern Europe. The scientific name Juglans is from Latin jovis glans, "Jupiter's nut", and regia, "royal". In the United States, the Persian Walnut is commonly mis-named "English Walnut"; the species is not native in England.

So I guess it is not even a European native - it is Asian. At least Wikipedia recognizes it is good for gunstocks.

There has been a lot of hybridization of California grown "English" much of which is grafted to claro root stock to resist borer beetles. As walnut groves in California have evolved, my understanding is that much of what is growing in orchards now is not or will not be suitable for gunstocks. Just a couple of cents worth of minutiae. Perhaps our friends from California can elaborate about this. I understand that negotiations are under way to try to harvest some Chinese J, Regia. Anyone know how that is proceeding?

We could call it "Royal" walnut - a translation of the Latin "Regia". Very descriptive into the bargain. If you are building an absolute top class sporting firearm you don't bother with Claro or Bastogne. The only exception would be something based on an American lever action or dropblock single shot where, like DeLuxe Winchesters in the old days, feathercrotch American Black walnut - Juglans Nigra - is arguably more suitable.

I think that it is safe to say that Juglans regia is the same tree wherever you find it. However, differences in soil minerals and climate will give the wood from different regions slightly different color patterns.

A lot of uniformed people put down Bastogne as an inferior wood. It is anything but that. A hybrid of Claro and Juglans Regia, it is a denser wood than both of it's parents, with higher tensile and shear strength. It's grain ends up as fiddle more than anything else but I have seen some incredible feathered crotch bastogne. Unfortunately when I saw it, the Biesens has already bought it all up. It is a premium wood and not one to be passed over. It is often selected for use on big recoiling rifles.

I have heard that there are strains of J. Regia that are cultivated for nut production that do not show much color at all. Most of the walnut orchards around me have a very light colored is very boring. I have seen wood from the Chico area that runs the gamut of colors.

Most walnut that is being harvested today for timber is what I term "incidental" species, that is depending on the locality, soil condition, etc. you may finish with a good quality blank.

We now have the knowledge to custom grow or tailor the finished wood for a specific purpose. On my ranch, trees are grown in rich volcanic red soil which tends toward acid at Ph 5.0. During the first few years essential trace elements are given to keep the trees in a slightly hungry state to harden them and keep the future timber grain close & tight.

Walnut only actively grows for 7 months per year and the remainder is somewhat dormant but plant food is stored in a bulbous root under the ground. In future years, this huge root can provide the most stunning "birds eye" and "marble cake" patterns associated with the highest grade blanks.

Trees are co-planted with Oak or Lacewood, both which grow much faster and form a base from which guy ropes and turnbuckles are fixed back to the lateral branches of the walnut. From age 5 years on these ropes are tightned to induce a twist to the main tree trunk which when eventually harvested, will show figure and "tiger tail" striping that may not be present in those grown naturally.

Young tree ready for planting


The matting of laterial roots from the bulbous base. This base can be up to 2 times the diameter of the main trunk.


There is also lots of wood passed off as walnut which could also be a form of the African Mahogany. Figure, texture & density are very similar. I have over 1000 of these planted also!
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20african.htm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Customstox:
A lot of uniformed people put down Bastogne as an inferior wood. It is anything but that.

What the hell is with the uniformed people of this world? Dammit, they are entitled to their opinion aren't they?

I've read that English sailors and colonists carried them around the world and they became associated with the English.

John

This (and a similar thread on 24hour gunwriters) has been a very informative discussion. John Barsness thinks that "Eurasian" might be the most accurate term and I have to agree. "English" certainly is a complete misnomer. I invite all of you to join in (a probably hopeless) campaign to get "Eurasian" accepted from now on. I shall certainly use it.

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Dan, Juglans Regia was brought to Europe by Marco Polo and he got them from Asia. He was a favored trader of Ghenkis Khan and was allowed a lot of liberties (including staying alive) that a lot of other folks did not benefit from in Asia. At least that is what my wood books say.

Also from my understanding it was planted and grew over a most of Europe including England. Certainly not anything to get worked up over.

Sorry, many things attributed to Marco Polo, just ain't so.

The Persian walnut was imported into China by Emperor Wu Ti about 100 BC.

The walnut was actually part of Greek and Roman mythology. Dionysus fell in love with Caryae When she died she was transformed by the gods into a walnut tree.

In Roman mythology, when Jove took human form, he lived on walnuts.

They stewed and served walnuts at Roman weddings as a sign of fertility. The very name, Juglans Regia, comes from the ancient Roman name for the walnut, Jovis Glans.

When Vesuvius errupted, in several houses, there were bowls of walnuts sitting on the table next to bowls of olives.

Walnut shells have been unearthed from tombs in Tunis, North Africa, the site of the ancient city of Carthage, which was destroyed by the Romans in 146 BC. Petrified walnut shells dating back to the Stone Age have been excavated in southwest France.

375AI,
Great information.
Something else i have found is that the Romans so cherished this wood that it was used for symbols of virility and wealth. They knew it as "Jupitars acorn" at one point.
An interesting point and something that Hollywood actually got correct was this.....Next time you watch the movie GLADIATOR, notice the sword given to Proximo by the Ceasar. When he is discussing his Freedom being granted to him he looks at a symbolic wooden sword. The blade very much appears to be Juglans Regia and in fact it most likely would have been in that situation. And the handle of ivory. Someone in Hollywood did their research.

As for the trees original distribution.....thank those ancient birds and migratory animals!

Well, if Marco Polo didn't bring walnut to Italy from Kubla Khan's China, he apparently did bring pasta in the form of noodles, so we owe him spaghetti, which arguably has made more people happier than walnut - even Juglans Regia.

Does that mean that Juglans Regia grown in Australia by BAW will eventually be known as Ass-tralian walnut?

Very interesting thread, vigillinus, and contributors, all.

But, in keeping with the mythological themes touched upon above, I fear your chosen task is Sisyphusian in nature.

quote:

Originally posted by vigillinus:
Well, if Marco Polo didn't bring walnut to Italy from Kubla Khan's China, he apparently did bring pasta in the form of noodles, so we owe him spaghetti, which arguably has made more people happier than walnut - even Juglans Regia.

Sorry, another Marco Polo myth. He writes about eating noodles with the great Khan. What surprised him was that the chineese knew about them.

There is evidence that the Romans got them from the Etruscans, a pre-roman people in Italy. This evidence goes back to at least 400 BC. Cicero also talks about his enjoyment of eating them.