(this isn't my video - but close)

So, about 12 years ago, I was working on an experiment to dray stock blanks faster - So I chose to put 2 blanks in a 55 gallon drum, seal it up, and apply vacuum on it -- my thought was thought was that under vac, the water would boil or exgas off quicker than leaving it to dry naturally -

Okay, great, i easily got to -10 psi, and then had more leakage, and by applying an asphalt based tape, i got the pressure to start going down again .. i was leaning against a bench, next to the barrel, talking to, i think Neal .. and the barrel imploded, just like this video -- i may have jumped 4 feet in the air, as it was NEXT to me

https://youtube.com/shorts/Zxd...?si=aUzcmLyhxlICSpNb

i repeated the experiment a few days later, at -10, and left it for a week -- which likely wasn't long enough, as there wasn't enough change to be worth while

And those who restore Military vehicles also know that it does not take much negative pressure to collapse an unvented fuel tank either.

try schedule 80 pvc.. 10".. i use it to stabilize gator venom resin in hardwood for knife scales...you can get all sorts of threaded fittings...

Here are some ideas: https://www.woodweb.com/knowle...ying_techniques.html

I like the concept of a limestone kiln. Similar to the dessicant jars of old that kept cookies and crackers dry. You could do something like gutting and old refrigerator and lining it with limestone. Paint it black and put out in the sun. Then you'd have a solar powered dryer. The wood and the limestone would eventually reach an equilibrium, so the wood wouldn't dry too fast.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
(this isn't my video - but close)

So, about 12 years ago, I was working on an experiment to dray stock blanks faster - So I chose to put 2 blanks in a 55 gallon drum, seal it up, and apply vacuum on it -- my thought was thought was that under vac, the water would boil or exgas off quicker than leaving it to dry naturally -

Okay, great, i easily got to -10 psi, and then had more leakage, and by applying an asphalt based tape, i got the pressure to start going down again .. i was leaning against a bench, next to the barrel, talking to, i think Neal .. and the barrel imploded, just like this video -- i may have jumped 4 feet in the air, as it was NEXT to me

https://youtube.com/shorts/Zxd...?si=aUzcmLyhxlICSpNb

i repeated the experiment a few days later, at -10, and left it for a week -- which likely wasn't long enough, as there wasn't enough change to be worth while

Accelerated drying most likely will not produce a premimum blank...just goota AGE...Wish Roer Vardy would chime in.

Lumber grade walnut is steamed.

With all the accumulated knowledge and experience on this thread there has to be more info on stock aging out there.

Mike

Browning experimented with salt drying wood and we all know how that turned out. The wood dried fine and fast and turned out beautiful stocks, that is until the brine that soaked into the stocks corroded the gunmetal. I'm sure if there were a superior method other than natural curing, it would be in broad use. If you read through the link I posted earlier there are varied methods that have been alleged to produce fast, high quality results. I've also wondered why freeze drying wouldn't work. It would draw water out of the wood in the vapor state and then convert it to ice on the walls of the vessel. Cost too is a big consideration. The latter would be expensive. Letting wood dry naturally for a year or so is no big deal once the first year has past. Then there are successive batches that roll out every year. Very cheap to air dry. Why not experiment by putting a blank in a sealed box with Damprid canisters set around it? That should remove a good bit of moisture.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Michalski:
With all the accumulated knowledge and experience on this thread there has to be more info on stock aging out there.

Mike

Very cool video experiment. Barrel wasn't filled as stated. Too light. and no water exit. Cool post.

The great gun stock supplier of years past..Joe Oakley told the incident of taking "just cut" blanks from His mill near Sacramento CA and motoring to Montana

Unloading the blanks, he found they had literally come apart, almost like explodiong,

He recalled he had heard some popping noises, but attributed it to road noise.

Joe was not one to make up stories, so I think there is a lesson to be learned

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Accelerated drying most likely will not produce a premimum blank...just goota AGE...Wish Roer Vardy would chime in.

^^^This. There is a significant Italian shotgun maker (make shotguns ranging from $2K to upwards of $20K) that started using kiln dried wood for stocks several years ago. Since then, gunsmiths I know that work on all manner of shotguns day in and day out have said they have seen a marked increase in stock cracks, splitting, etc. on this particular brand.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Accelerated drying most likely will not produce a premimum blank...just goota AGE...Wish Roer Vardy would chime in.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I agree whole heartedly with DW. Stock wood needs to be naturally dried and aged. My time is valuable, maybe to know one else but myself. I've seen wood move and sometimes split after it became a stock, and not just a little bit!

you all probably know this, but someone might benefit from it: I work part time in a small lumber producing business. we mill, kiln dry, flatten, and machine various species of hardwood. In addition, I've built furniture for quite a few years. I'm located in northern michigan. It is well known by wood people up here that we will never be able to get hardwood lower that 12-14% moisture content by air-drying alone. We furniture builders want 5-7% ideally. I've personally air-dried hardwood that is 1-1 1/4" thick for several years and still it was only that 12-14%. So if you're located in our part of the country and want to dry your own stock wood, the only other solution I can think of would be to send your blanks to some other part of the country for an extended period of time. Also, we see the moisture content rising back upward after a period of time after having been kiln dried. The other thing we see is that the more figure in the wood, the harder to get the moisture out. Just my 2 cents worth.

Get a storage shed in Arizona. One summer season should do the trick.

i would avoid logs wood coming from riverbottoms
lots of water fast growing
also logs from red dirt soil - tends to have more chance of internal cell structure collaspe

In the real world, wood will tend toward ambient humidity over time.

In 1967 I was a stockmaker for Knights Gun Store in FT Worth, Tx. I went to Mo. to visit Fajans and Bishops plants. The Bishops used a pit about 10 ft deep and 30 ft X 30 ft wide. The blanks were placed down inside with spacing strips until it was full. Next they added water to cover the blanks and next would pump out the water, then heat was supply. They would let these blanks dry for about 3 months at a certain temperature. Bishops wood was from the hills in Mo. and Fajens were more from the sand flats in Oklahoma. Bishops wood blanks were much harder to cut by hand. It has been so many years ago that I wish I had made notes back then. I bought 10 blanks from Bishop and shipped them back to Ft Worth.

My family had owned sawmills to cut hard wood in Texas. Most wood was made into pallets for brick companies. I had an interest that I sold out to my father when I left for TSJC gunsmith school in 1961. We air dried black walnut stocks under an open shed. After three yrs I would take a few blanks inside my shop to finish for another yr. These blanks were dry and very hard.

My working days are over and I have tried to help other people learn from so of us old stockmakers.

quote:

The blanks were placed down inside with spacing strips until it was full. Next they added water to cover the blanks and next would pump out the water, then heat was supply. They would let these blanks dry for about 3 months at a certain temperature.

Interesting! That suggests they were attempting to equalize moisture content and then have a uniform drying time for the batch. Presumably by hot dry air flow.

Lester, I think I speak for many on this forum in thanking you for your contributions over the years/

So, what is the recommended acclimation time for hardwoods? My last stock (cal. english) was kiln dried, came from California and was acclimated (post inletting) here for 2 months in 45-50% humidity during final shaping. The stock was sealed inside and at both ends to keep the inner humidity constant. Moisture level unknown. So, far no cracks, expansion or contraction noted.

I recall the late Tony BArnes a gun genious in his own right cut a black walnut/claro cross bred tree and soaked it in his cattle dirt tank for a year or so as I recall , then air dryed it for ?? time..I have a stock made from that tree thats hard as woodpecker lips and going on 40 years. Not sure 0f all the of the details.

If I wood lathe a bowl from material I know still have moisture in it, when partly finished, I bury it in dry sawdust.
Would something like that help with green blanks?

Well, my high school physics teacher (who BTW was a science advisor to Gen.G.S.Patton) always told us: "Things tend to go from where they are to where they aren't". So I would say yes. You could also bury it in 50 lbs of rice.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
If I wood lathe a bowl from material I know still have moisture in it, when partly finished, I bury it in dry sawdust.
Would something like that help with green blanks?

quote:

Originally posted by richj:
Lumber grade walnut is steamed.

First saw this at a mill.
Mill manager told me that, sapwood became "regular" walnut!

I'll relate an experience, in the hope that someone will learn something from it:

Must have been 2002/3 I first went to Dargo, VIC at the invitation of the great Aussie stocker Geoff Slee. I'd previously been quietly cutting some blanks in my home state, under the tutelage of a bloke who previously cut blanks for the Brit gun trade under his father.

Things were done very differently in Dargo, and Geoff was cutting blanks from trees sourced by Barney Websdale and mostly milled by a chap from Portland, VIC (Graeme Berry). Back in those days we pitched in the skilled labour of cutting the blanks from previously milled trees, processed them and stored them for seasoning as Geoff had implemented.

Geoff had a volume market and went through hundreds of blanks a year for machined stocks, plus a much lower quantity used for his custom work. Initially he was using 3-year air dried blanks for production machined stocks and many custom stocks too. In contrast, I had a somewhat different method of storing and drying/seasoning blanks (which has since evolved). Geoff was nearing the end of his career, and under great pressure to obtain enough blanks to meet demand. Prior to the Dargo blanks he'd mainly used blanks cut by Patrick Marshall (Blenheim NZ). I was at the other end of the race. Obviously, given that background, when it came to seasoning and storing blanks, Geoff and I didn't see eye-to-eye all the time. Within several years, Barney was transporting Geoff's share of "green" blanks to Lester W's solar kiln in Bairnsdale to speed up processing, and the same year they were being machined into stocks. The kindest thing I can say is that it knocked the guts out of the blanks, stability was variable, and the difference in texture between my own Dargo blanks was like night and day. I found out about the kiln the hard way because Geoff had kept the new experiement with his blanks quiet. I guess he thought I wouldn't approve, and if so he'd have been correct. Back then I was making up laminated walnut blanks for Geoff, who sent his blanks to the other side of Oz for me to laminate rather than pay a bit extra for mine. All of a sudden, the wood texture and stability changed from what I'd been used to seeing in the 3-year Dargo blanks and I learned the hard way that glue lines won't stop unstable blanks from moving and I lost a lot of time (money). Geoff knew I was anti "force drying" blanks and it took a while for the whole picture to become apparent. After that I quit laminating those blanks for Geoff, and he geared up to do them himself late 2006/7. After 2006 I quit cutting blanks with Geoff altogether, although I still cut blanks with Brian for many years at his invitation. Cutting blanks with Geoff was tough - his focus was on getting numbers of low-to-mid grade blanks for his business, whereas I wanted the best out of a tree and the lower grade stuff came last. After 2006, I cut all Dargo blanks bar about 88 blanks (the plain blanks from one tree). Those kilned blanks were a disaster to me, and to Geoff too. In 2008 he approached me to supply seasoned blanks but needed them at "young" prices, and I just wouldn't budge and nor would he. He never got the blanks. I'll admit I've never seen any kilned blanks I regarded any different, though some are better than others.

I kept blanks from Geoff's 3-year Dargo era tht until recently were stored and dried his way, and a few dozen from his kilned Dargo era as a reference. Looking at the blanks I seasoned and stored from the same trees, you'd think they came from another planet. Here we get to the reason I have told the above: Fact is that my different seasoning and storage methods resulted in far finer pored, tougher, less brittle, nicer-to-work and more stable blanks. Period. I will happily demonstrate this to any visitor worth my time, and if they doubt me they can fork out for the DNA tests of the blanks (I know which blanks came from which trees and where in the tree). A short time before he passed, Geoff asked to see some blanks and we had a few discussions about walnut and seasoning. He was amazed at the difference in texture, and I showed him hundreds of photos of a large stand of trees I was milling at the time which demonstrated how I went about the task and why. Even near death, he wanted to get stuck into them. That man knew more about fine walnut than anyone I've met in Oz, despite the above, and when he wanted to he could do very fine work. He was also academically minded and could reason a point and cared about the future of the trade. Trouble is, down here, fine work doesn't pay the damn bills too well. About the last thing he said to me is 5 years, air dried, well stored is a sensible minimum and that 3 years air dried was unreliable and kilned blanks are inferior in every way. I'd say that's fair, but storage methods are critical. I'll also say that my own blanks continue to show noticeable settling thereafter until around 10-12 years and so that is my own minimum. What I mostly use is near to double that. Early on, while patiently waiting for my own walnut to season, I used a lot of bought-in blanks and learned a lot about them the hardest ways.

For me it's air dried all the way. Running a machined stock business that has seen blanks from many suppliers, one can make comparisons about the quality/texture/stability of blanks that come from different suppliers. The way a blank winds up can be related to genetics, growing conditions and blank production/storage techniques, but the effects of each are very complex and not all blank cutters/suppliers are forthcoming about their techniques. In fact very few are. I've been lucky to meet several who were, and I learned much from them.

Now, for me, the other end of the race is in sight and one consistently recurring observation I can relate is that, nowadays, folk are generally obsessed with perceived value irrespective of a common sense approach to quality. Customers and too many stock makers I encounter increasingly don't care a hoot how well cut and seasoned a blank is, they just care about how pretty the wood is and many are not happy unless they come away thinking they bled you pretty darn dry. The use of forced blanks has been so prevalent for decades now that I suspect customers and many stockers don't get to see many really finely cut and seasoned blanks, irrespective of grade.

The European walnut tree is a majestic tree. I have seen a lot of trees wasted by poor application of intelligent technique, and plain old haste and greed. Good mature trees start at about 150 years and I prefer them closer to 200. Other than waste from poor cutting and drying techniques, I see a lot of trees cut up that are closer to 65-80 years in age, which to me is inane. Such trees are too young to get much from. The least we can do is to do the best job of producing a good blank, from a mature tree about at the end of it's life but before disease and rot set in and destroy the wood. Folk ought to respect this and be willing to pay the blokes doing the work enough to make a living. I have read very little about cutting, drying and seasoning blanks that made much sense to me, and other than the small handful of folk who knew their business and shared it (profoundly notable exceptions), I've heard even less. I've processed just under a thousand of them. Not the biggest cutter, but I cut for my own consumption and am very, very happy with the blanks.

By the way, part of the reason for steaming black and claro logs must be to get rid of the horrid yellow streaks that sometimes plague the wood. In air dried blanks of black and claro walnut I've cut, plane them off and it often shows through, sometimes bright yellow, sometimes almost cream. Eventually it turns to a lovely contrasting light brown, but it takes an age and requires trust from the customer that maybe a year from now that stock wont have those ugly highlights. I'm not a fan of the density and texture of most Oz grown black walnut for most stocks, but some of the Claro has been spectacularly superb - very fine pored, tough leathery wood that held fine detail and fine checkering. At least when I see that off-colour in an "outside" blank sent to me for machining, I feel pretty safe that it's air-dried.

Genetics and growing conditions play a part, but blank production techniques and storage have a profound influence on the wood and how reliable a stock is in service. With European walnut grown in AU and NZ at least, walnut from different areas (genetics, climate, soil fertility etc) can be vastly different. When you concentrate on the best trees from the best areas for your purposes and air dry and season thoroughly, you will get a consistently decent and stable product. I also fully believe through experience that not all that many climates allow for blanks to undergo seasoning changes for many years. I can only relate this phenomenon to storage conditions and interplay of temperature, relative humidity and atmospheric pressure in different climates. This is born out by the (hundreds) of outside blanks I've been sent to machine for customers that have moved before and during production - it has been a steep learning curve to minimise movement in these blanks after production. I don't have to worry too much about my own blanks in comparison.

I'll add that I don't sell many raw blanks, and cannot be bothered in most cases. Most buyers have an obsession with a bargain and ignorance of quality seasoned walnut to the point I'd be losing big money selling blanks. It's cheaper not to sell them at all to most stock makers and customers, despite the real estate they consume in storage. It must be realised that only a complete fool would air dry and store wood for one, two or more decades only to sell it at the same prices as force-dried young stuff. I'm not posting this in the hope of hawking blanks.

As to moisture content of a blank, they will settle to ambient relative humidity, It takes as long as it takes. Weigh them regularly and watch them stabilise and you'll know when they have reached equilibrium - until the seasons change that is. No need for moisture meters in this instance. A stock maker ought to have means to bring a blank down or up to the likely moisture content of the customers destination before and while stocking, or the stock will shrink or swell after a period of time in the customers hands if they live in an area much different to where the stock was made (or the blank stored prior). In my experience this cannot be understated. Blanks that have been seasoned thoroughly and settled their fibres tend to exhibit less wild reactions to seasonal or sudden weather conditions, but will of source still "breathe" seasonally - just much more reliably.

Most of the best blokes who taught me anything much are nearly all dead, and sadly mostly too young. I'm increasingly grateful for their constructive input and was blessed to be chosen to pass it on to. It's increasingly challenging to find anyone worth passing what I know on to. Traditional work is a dying thing down here.

I will never cease to be amazed at how detached from walnut trees and blank production most stockers are. In my eyes that is far from an ideal situation. I got out of that situation and went and invested the time, machinery and labour to ensure decent blanks.

It just so happens I'm just starting work on an ex Mitchell Bosley (early days) blank for a customer in Belgium at the moment. It's completely sublime, and pretty too. I think it's seasoned well enough. The next job is from a younger blank cut by Ted Stone blank around 60 years ago. I just don't have to worry about stability in such blanks, provided the blanks were well stored and I do my job. Better overkill than not enough, and I enjoy working other folks fine blanks as well as my own.

Thank you. Words of wisdom. What you say is obviously based on years of experience and makes sense.