What do you guys think. I have been mulling this over in my head for awhile now. It seems to me that it would not be too aweful difficult to take a SXS 12 gauge, cut off the barrels, turn down a couple 45 caliber barrel blanks and fit these barrel blanks to the 12 gauge snub barrels. I would then fixture everything up and fit a muzzle quarter rib and then get down to regulating. The hardest part appears to be fabricating the extractors.

Anyway, that is a top level of the plan. What do y'all think. Caliber would be 45-120.

Todd E

I know a guy who made a BSS into a 500 NE. He did 2 of them. No problems yet.

Dennis Olson will make a 10 ga. double into a 600 NE.

www.Hallowellco.com has a double that I think is in 45-120. It is $4500 or so, but I suspect that is negotiable.

Hunting in the Tienshanski Gore, in Kyrghizstan, I met a native hunter who had a sigle shot shotgun, in which barrel he had introduced a barrel chambered for the 7,62x54R Russian, with which he had shot a countless number of marco polo sheep. The only ammo he had available was with military jacketed bullets. His gun had no extractor and he had to use a rod to take the spent shell out. He said he did not mind that as one shot was enough at the distances he care to shoot. He was happy with the full jacketed bullets as he said he could sometimes take two poli with one shot.
Fair enough!
montero

the Bakail double barrles are available with 45-70 inserts now. And Lothar-Walther markets inserts for all sorts of calibers in all sorts of barrels, not just shotguns. But wouldn't YOU be afraid that they would spin themselves around in the shotgun bores? Torsional restiance being what it is in a smooth bore mounting. But, hey, I'm just a Mechanical Engineer, what do I know.

I asked this question to Butch Searcy. He says its not cost effective. If you want it done absolutely, there may be low pressure rounds. The barrel liners used very much in Europe ( most inseted in the top - shotgun barrel of an O/U combo guns ) are mostly .22 Mag, .22 Hornet, .222, 5.6x52 or a new caliber specially for roe deer, 6.5x70R ( Norma??)

For a combo gun it makes sense, but its better to buy a Bergstutzen from the beginning. Barrel liners add weight.

How popular and cheap are 10 bore doubles?

Hermann

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I looked at an NEF 10 bore single once. The thought of actually firing it as a shotgun never seriously enterd my mind. the thought of suppresed barrel inserts, however, did.

There is a fellow in Calgary that has built a couple of 45-70's on Browning BSS shotguns. They look pretty cool, but really are too heavy for just a 45-70. I think the 20 gauge would be a better choice to start with, and with factory or equivalent loads the 45-70 is a low pressure round. FWIW - Dan

Hermann,

I can believe from a business standpoint that it would not be cost effective. I am speaking from a hobbyist standpoint. It is not cost effective for me to machine an action from solid stock.

I was considering the 12 gauge because if I ream out the chamber area to a straight 0.805" that would leave me a barrel thickness of 0.155" if chambered for the
45-120 Sharps. The stress calcs for this barrel wall thickness and 40,000 psi of chamber pressure are very much in the safe range.

I am only trying to understand how BIG of a project this would be. In concept it does not seem to be TOO aweful big.

Todd E

The Browning BSS, and it should be hardedned, makes a decent double rifle, I stocked a couple for Rick Stickley and they shot real well, but I believe I would rather buy a Searcy...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Something like this?

http://www.eaacorp.com/parts/Inserts/

"Barrel Inserts
Now you can convert your IZH43, IZH43K or MP213 to a side by side rifle or rifle/shotgun combo. The insert system holds the rifle barrel inside the shotgun barrel at the muzzle and breach. Thus, creating a more accurate rifle than traditional side by side rifles. Calibers: (45-70, .308 WIN, .30-06, .222, .223). "

Ray,
Thanks for the input. I had not thought about hardening the action.

Vibe,
The balance is crap with barrel inserts in a 12 gauge. It is pretty obvious you have no clue as to what would be required to buld a double rifle out of a double shotgun. I base this on the fact that nothing you have said would indicate any knowledge. Heck, you did not even know that the barrel inserts for those Baikal's are threaded in! Why don't you reserve your posts for topics which you have some knowledge and can be of benefit to someone. Your posts here are only "crying in your beer" because of the posts we have been exchanging on the "barrel fluting thread". I am sorry if I know more about vibrations and harmonics than you do.

Todd E

"The balance is crap with barrel inserts in a 12 gauge."

This would beg the question of why you would want one then. Wouldn't it?

"Heck, you did not even know that the barrel inserts for those Baikal's are threaded in! "

LOL. Would you care to point out any of my postings that would support that conclusion? I guess it would depend on YOUR assumption of WHAT the insert is "threaded in" to though wouldn't it. See if you can find ANY where the installation procedure calls for threading any part of the original shotgun. You won't. It is retained by a nut on the treaded barrel insert, which pulls the insert in tight to the chamber. What was it that you were "assuming" that I did not know?

"Why don't you reserve your posts for topics which you have some knowledge and can be of benefit to someone."

I wa attempting to be of benefit to someone looking for a rifle barrel insert for a shotgun. The length of the smoothbore barrels is immaterial as to the "how" of doing it. But if you insist on trying to reinvent the wheel, since there are existing inserts WITH extractors available. And really feel the need to destroy a double barrel, as well as illegaly making a Class 3 weapon in the process (it does sound as if your "Stub" barrels will be less than 18" long making the base firearm a "sawed off shotgun". But hey, if you LIKE wasing money and spending quality time in prison, it's no skin of of my nose. Yep. You are SO much more inteligent than I am. hehehe.

"Your posts here are only "crying in your beer" because of the posts we have been exchanging on the "barrel fluting thread". "

"crying in your beer" ...LOL. The only "crying" I've been doing over these posts is when I get to laughing too hard at you assumed superiority while contradicting yourself . Thanks. I really needed a chuckle. I will admit to "pulling your chain" on the subject though. Ohhhhh??? Did I hurt your feelings by demonstration how silly it sounds when posted in referece to what you want to do?

"I am sorry if I know more about vibrations and harmonics than you do. "

I'm sorry you believe that too. Sorry for the people that you will go on to advise on the subject that is.

about 15 years ago butch searcy was using double shotgun actions to build his rifles as i remember they were brownings we were stocking for him. i am prety sure he has been building his own for a while. have stocked a few other browning 20 guage conversions for others but i dont think they were cut off barrels i think they were all new barrel

As someone whose access is only to guns that are probably considered prehistoric considering how rapidly gun tech is advancing these days, maybe, in the light of all the difficulties tha others who are more learned than I am have pointed out, you could try to build an "Explora" type rifled 12 bore double. There are old guns of this type in India that are devastatingly effective on wild boars (one of very few animals we are allowed to hunt on "crop protection" permits. With the modern 3" and 3 1/2" 12 bore slugs available, there should be ample opportunity for making a much more powerful (albeit short range) double rifle.

------------------
Mehul Kamdar

Vibe,

In your first post on this thread you that there was nothing to keep the barrel inserts from spinning due to the bullets torque. This was a sarcastic statement based on you ignorance of how the barrel inserts are retained.

I stated in my orginal post that I was cutting off the barrels and utilizing the action only. Can't you read? Stop being such a cry baby.

Todd E

Todd old buddy, this is one of those ideas where you just have to lie down and pray it goes away! You are entering a much more complicated world then you imagine. This is similar to the day I woke up and deceided to build my own contender barrel. By the time I was done I had 200 machine time hours in the thing and had spent about 300 hrs of time I would rather have been shooting. I could have bought 20 contender barrels for what I put into it. Save yourself alot of grief and sweet talk Butch Searcy into selling you a proper double that works!-Rob

The Browning (BSS) is really strong. Most side-by-side shotguns aren't - they'd probably go loose pretty quick if chambered for a modern-day high pressure rifle cartridge.

-- Mats

Yo Mutts. Que pasa hombre? LOL. Ain't life grand. Ol' Todd really thinks he's onto sumpin though. You be racin'? huntin'? Or lovin'? All three?

Rob,

What were some of the issues that you got yourself into with that Contender? I realize that the fixturing required to align and solder the barrels will be "intersting". I like a good challenge; however, I must admit I did not think that I would have 200 machining hours involved. I figured closer to 40 - 60 machining hours. Which in reality would probably double. Any insight you could provide would be very much appreciated.

Mats,

I was actually thinking of using a Baikal action for a prototype (read cheap) then moving onto a better quality action. I am curious why you feel that a Anson & Heeley action from a 12 gauge would be weaker than a Anson & Heeley action from a typical double rifle which are usually 20 gauge shotgun actions to begin with. I realize that most of the larger double rifles have thrid fasteners of somekind, cross bolts, and even side clips, but with a light smokeless load in a 45-120 Sharps I should get 2000+ with a 400 grain slug and have a chamber pressure of less than 30,000 CUP.

Vibe,

What is your problem. I have tried to be polite, but you are making it somewhat difficult. You did not answer my questions on this thread and were somewhat rude. A double rifle will have better balance than a shotgun with inserts since the rifles barrels are of a lighter contour. If this is all about the other thread I am sorry to have upset you. You still have not been able to answer my questions though so do not get upset at me with regard to your own ignorance.

Todd E

"What is your problem. I have tried to be polite, "

The only problem that I have with this entire thread is that you failed miserably in the attempt to satisfy the latter half of this phrase. If your responses to my posts are "polite" lord help your in-laws.

"but you are making it somewhat difficult."

LOL. No. I'm just jerking the rope to see how high the jack-ass will jump.

"You did not answer my questions on this thread and were somewhat rude."

Well. No, I didn't. Since none of your previous posts indicated that you were interested in anything anyone else might have to contribute, if it interfered with what you had already decided were the facts.

And I was not "Somewhat rude" I've been out and out condecending and sarcastic. I tried in our first posts to speak reasonably and supply what I hoped were rational sugestions. But then addopted a manner similar to the one with which I was addressed in hopes that THAT form might get you to think. Neither worked. Do what you want to dude, it's your money. But somewhere between the time you cut off those 12 guage barrels and the time you WELD (Or braze, I'm not sure about soldering) the rifle barrels into the stubs, you will be guilty of a felony without a form 4 approved for a sawed off shotgun. If you have an FFL or a manufacturers license you MAY qualify for an exemption to this. If not...Well good luck...hope you don't get caught. Remember Randy Weaver, and US V. Miller.

Like the monkey said after making love to the skunk..."Well guys, I'm out of here, I've "Enjoyed" about as much of this as I can stand".

A good friend of mine was working for a shop in east Texas, and he made two double rifles in 45-70 using SxS shotguns. I don't recall the details, but he indicated it was a lot of trouble. It is plausible, but probably not feasible.

Good luck and good shooting

ToddE- I think if you want something that will just go Bang, then you could probably machine off the shotgun barrels from a Browning BSS and machine in two grooves in the block and make contender style extractors. Very Very carefully Weld on two barrels( of exactly the correct diameter to center the firing pins) silver soldered together and into which you have cut the extractor grooves and EDM in a dolls head and you can probably get it to go bang safely. Regulation will be fun. Accuracy MOB ( minute of Buffalo) The fun part is Tig welding the barrels to the block without inducing stresses which will ruin the barrels while maintaining the needed headspace. This is where a proper fixture will be necessary. That was one of the biggest problems I ran into. I'd call Butch Searcy, he started out doing just this and he probably would tell you exactly what you need to know. He's a great guy! -Rob

[This message has been edited by Robgunbuilder (edited 04-25-2002).]

Rob,

Thanks for the information.

Here are some load and stress calculations I ran.

12 gauge shotgun - 1.375oz slug
Chamber pressure = 11,600 psi
Thrust area of case = 0.417 in^2
Thrust force = 4842 lbs

45-120 - 405 Grain Soft Point
Thrust area of case = 0.114 in^2
Thrust force at following chamber pressures:
35,000 psi Force = 3990 lbs MV = 2180 fps
40,000 psi Force = 4560 lbs MV = 2300 fps
42,500 psi Force = 4845 lbs MV = 2370 fps
45,000 psi Force = 5130 lbs MV = 2420 fps

Thrust of 308 Win @ mil spec 54,000 psi chamber pressure = 5048 lbs

The 308 Win is available as a drop in barrel insert for double barrel shotguns.

Based upon these numbers it would appear that I could safely load the 45-120 Sharps to 45,000 psi without the need of all the strength enhancing features (although they sure would not hurt). My intention is to load to 40,000 psi chamber pressure and obtain 2300 fps muzzle velocity with a 405 grain Remington flat point. I think it is feasible with a minimum expense.

One last note. The old english guns were soldered together. As far as I know this is still the accepted production practice. Oh, my intention is not to produce a fine looking piece of art and function like Mr. Searcy does. If that was what I wanted I would purchase the Searcy and be done with (I may yet). This is just a project that will keep me busy for a while. I am only after a functional double rifle not necessarily an object of fine beauty (and doubt I will be able to produce a beautiful weapon, but it should function).

Todd E

ToddE- I don't question the fact that the action will take the gaff of a 45-120. At least for awhile! The real problems surround the geometry of the barrels and the method of attachment to the block. Tig welding will be the only way to go followed by stress releiving and re-machining. to clean up the job. I'd use force 44 solder to attach the barrels to each other once the extractor cuts were made and alligned.Include a front barrel wedge to provide some entertment if you think this thing will be even remotely regulatable. This project will definately keep you out of the bars or perhaps cause you to take up drinking! If I could only post a picture here I'd show you one of the contender barrels I made. Never again!-Rob

Rob,

You really think that I will have to weld the rifle barrels into the shotgun tubes? I had figured that with a shrink fit and silver solder I could get by. I will not post the entire process I envisioned just in case there is another screw ball like me and it turns out to be unsafe.

The welding concerns me for obvious reasons. How well did the contender barrels work out? Another option may be to screw the new barrels into the shotgun tubes, but that would require some fancy threading wouldn't it.

Again thanks for sharing your wisdom on this one. Oh, the reason for posting the stresses was just to point out that the action (if not compromised by the whole affair) should hold up about as well as it would as a 12 gauge. Of course I am not pushing that 45-120 to anywhere near it's full potential.

Todd E

At the Custom Gun Show this year in Reno we had a guest commercial exhibitor who was selling Double barrel shot gun or double barrel rifle Kits. You could buy the kits in a mono bloc, or a Chopper lump (more expensive). The kit had a box lock with false side plates or real side locks (again more expensive). The double rifles were built on 20 gauge frames. All the parts had to fitted to the action. Those smiths who knew said it was a very big task. The shotgun kit was around $650 on special and the rifle kit was around $900. It had all the parts except the knowledge to make it work. Calibers ranged from 22Lr to 458. But there were a lot of gaps.

folks to talk to are Crown Press Custom Parts, Austinburg, Ohio 440 275 1400

Chic,

Thanks very much. Heck they are in my own backyard so to speak.

Todd E

ToddE- To follow your plan of milling off the existing shotgun barrels and then turning the barrel blanks to fit in the remaining chamber sleeves is still going to require welding and some precision machining of the barrels. You would then have to somehow adapt the existing extractor system to your new barrels.
Assuming there is no taper in the breech sleeves, I'd silver solder the barrels in place with a shoulder on the barrel and weld the shoulder to the sleeve. The increase in strength will be significant over just relying on silver soldering.
Frankly, based on the problems desctribed above , I'd inside thread the remaining shotgun chamber sections using a properly indicated mill( this would be a trivial operation as you can buy Taps of the right size albeit expensive ones) and then thread the barrels to match. I would first ream the barrel sleeves to ensure that you have a straight hole of a known diameter. Put a shoulder on the barrels so that where the barrel and sleeve meet is nearly invisable. This way you could adjust the extractior cuts on the barrel( I'd still go ala contender type i.e nothing fancy just a single bar) and play with the barrel tapers until it all fits properly. You can adjust the barrel headspace via the shoulder just like on a mauser, and then cut the extractor gooves. A rib would cover up the worst of it. Regulation may also be possible using a barrel wedge followed by final silver soldering of the barrels together( once you have shot it enough for regulation purposes).Once this is done you would have a very ridgid set-up. This approach would actually be doable, would avoid welding ( which actually works out just fine as 4 million contender barrels can attest) and might actually work. The only issue is that I know Butch Searcy added a Dolls head for added ridgidity. I'd talk to him and see exactly why he needed to to that. I suspect you will unfortunately need to add that feature and if so this approach's complexity goes up an order of magnitude! What do you think?-Rob

Rob,
I think we are both on the same page now. Your analysis is very much appreciated. The process you have spelled out is pretty much what I had in mind. I think I will think this thing over a bit more and then a bit more after that and make a decision early this fall.

Thanks!
Todd E

Todd E- Yes I do believe it could be done and would certainly earn you major bragging rights if you choose to pursue it. I still think the best thing is to call Butch Searcy and order a double from him in 45-120 ( I know he can do this caliber as we have talked about it before).Properly built you can exceed 450 Ackley power with the right reloads. In the end this project will cost you at least $1200 in parts and a few hundred hours of labor. Butch's guns are not cheap, but they are darn good. For this level of effort even I'm not crazy enough to give it a go. We will all be very impressed however if you are successful.-Rob

I know this isn't the correct forum but it is in a way. I have a Richland 10Ga. double barrel that is missing both firing pins & one of the firing pin retainers. The metal is clean & bores are fine. The receiver has been fine wire brushed. The stock is their typical cheap wood. If someone wants this for a project let me know, maybe we can strike up a deal.

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Doug Humbarger
NRA Life member

[This message has been edited by Bear Claw (edited 04-27-2002).]

Todd,
If you convert a Browning SS save your shotgun barrels and use them...To make your double rile you should make or purchase double rifle mono blocks and install and chamber the barrels then regulate them...to use the existing chambers sleeved is not a good practice and greatly reduces the strenth and quality of the gun that you are building, and is just as much work.....

Another way to go is buy a double rifle project from Crown Press Custom Parts. Order their catalog from Tom Ondrus, Tel. 440-275-1400 or email at crownpress@alltel.net That's the way I would go and save some big bucks and end up with a first rate double, I suspect. Quite the catalog!! Everything you need is right there and made.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

You are the second guy to give me that advise. At the onset of this project I was unaware of the double rifle "kits". I am glad I decided to post this.

Thanks everyone.

Todd E

Todd , Mr Franco Beretta can supply with what you need it means barrel for sleeve the 12 Ga chambers of an exiting barrel or demi block ( chopper lumps ) it could be made with the heads ( chambers )silver soldered and milling planes for action adjustment , this way it the very ( VERY )complicated , also you need the ribs Mr. Beretta produces , if you think extractor it's a problem don't think to made a chopper lumps express , try to find a suitable used shotgun with damaged barrels , a personal caliber choice for this express .470 NE .
Visit http://www.effebi.org

Saludos

Daniel