Some of you may recall I posted on another thread that I was trying to discourage a friend from going into the action building business; he went to SCI with the investors and is continuing with his plans. After meeting with the investors, the decision is to abandon the Large Ring Mauser style action, and instead focus on two types of receivers which can be manufactured at considerably lower cost. The primary product is patterned after the ever popular push feed tubular style receiver, and the other is patterned on the 1903 Springfield receiver; I do not understand the choices but I am not the one with the money. In addition, my friend is moving operations to the Colorado Springs area where he will have fewer logistics issues.


I am highly disappointed in the way this has turned out but I thought I would try to gain some understanding by asking AR members about their opinions on the demand for these two types of receivers as well as any insight as to the validity of choosing these two items to market. I feel there is considerably less room in the niche for these products than GMA and other brands have in the Mauser (or facsimile thereof) niche. What are your opinions?

I am glad I don't have any money in this venture but I wish him good luck. I think the market is fairly well represented with regard to bolt actions at this point. Maybe if he built double square bridge Mag Mausers....

you know what they say. paraphrasing" find out what sells the best and sell the same thing."

There are about 8 manufacturers of round action Rem clones with a retail of $650 up. I sure wouldn't wade into that market.
Butch

I also would not want any of my money in such a venture. And, as the Model of 1903 was a variation of the Mauser, it seems an odd choice.

I'd say definitely a niche market for the 1903. And probably not a very large one. Best wishes for a successful venture.

quote:

Posted 09 February 2010 05:06 Hide Post
I also would not want any of my money in such a venture. And, as the Model of 1903 was a variation of the Mauser, it seems an odd choice.


John Farner
Eagle Machine Gunsmithing, LLC.

I know next to nothing about gun smithing trades , but I do agree with what John says . As the 1903 action is a variation of the Mauser action . least that's my take on it .

As and investment opportunity, and as others have mentioned, not the most desireable at this time I would think. Ruger is most likely the only firearms mfg. of sporting rifles that is a "going concern" these days. Rest have been absorbed or foreign owned for they smply could not remain independent w/ production costs plus liabilities involved.
However, you mention the '03 action and for a start up venture, if one could at an acceptable cost duplicate the original '03 action itself, there still remains a fairly large quantity of parts needed to complete the action such as NS bolts, Remington bolts, etc., strikers, extractors, mag cut off switch, et., etc. These parts are surplus mil spec and are of good quality and as of today, the prices are not prohibitive. Plenty of good quality barrel firms out there and that would be the easy part.

As to style, if you could duplicate the old G&H style in plain but sturdy walnut believe they would sell. Better quality wood could be offered at a later date. Boyd's would probably work with you on the basic stocks?? '06 and 35Whelen would cover a lot of the potential customer base in the configuration mentioned. Forged/machined receivers would be very costly, but could reverse engineer with quality investment casting process. Ruger is one of the larger investment casting firms in the U.S. and have a separate business unit that does just that, even golf club heads. Believe it is called Pinetree Casting?? Just me, but the Griffin and Howe sporterized '03's are what I would call an American Classic in long arms.
Would they sell?? If you could keep the MSRP below $1,000.00 per copy, I think they would attract some buyers. Would suggest three levels of rifles, Hunter grade, Standard Grade, and Classic Grade with pricing accordingly. My consulting fees are steep, but if you cut me some slack on one of the first ones, I'll let it slide. Good luck.

I wouldn't invest a cent in it ..
1903 styled action? that's a TOUGH character to put a scope on, from time to time .. and other than being american, its none better than a mauser 98

pushfeed? REALLY? how much cheaper than a savage is it going to be? That's the basement market .. and unless its winning benchrest comps, it can't begin to compare with a remington ...

so, in a word - NO ... not even Montana rifleman was able to make it work with winchester CLOSED and dakota on the ropes.. they OWNED the m70 market, and NOTHING happened.

There's NO WAY I would invest in a no name venture trying to do rifle actions, TODAY ..

The 1903 is NOT a variation of the mauser. .. the "famous" patent suit was about the EXTRACTOR only .. no mauser 98 has a mag cut off or cocking piece, or frankly, anything else .. that's just silly talk...

the FACTS are that the 1903 doesn't have enough following to make parts for, unless those are modified mauser parts, and its a WASTE of time to make a custom action over, ESPECIALLY with today's "sue em" society.

make a batter revolver!

Sounds all wrong to me...

If a "company" could make a Mauser actioned rifle in the Pattern of a British between the Wars, Bolt Rifle, at a reasonable cost....

Never mind. There's not point in arguing with an idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
The 1903 is NOT a variation of the mauser. .. the "famous" patent suit was about the EXTRACTOR only .. no mauser 98 has a mag cut off or cocking piece, or frankly, anything else .. that's just silly talk...

Actually, I think the lawsuit was over stripper clips. And, yes, the Mauser does have a cocking piece, elsewise, how would it fire?

Still, I think the market for 1903's is rather small.

couldn't it be said that all CRF actions in some way take from Mauser? interesting thing my gunsmith told me once, and he did some amazig custom work on an 03a3 for me, and specialized in enfields, he said "nobody's improved on a Mauser". I thought that was a big statement from him.

anyways, BAD business plan. I like a nice Springfield, but don't see a market for them. if he's going that route and won't be deterred there is a way to get the scope mount height almost as low as mod 70's. tell him to make the rear bridge an integral base.

there's other things not to copy exactly either, hopefully he looks at some customs before designing. even a doomed company might put out a handful of cool prototypes.

If they are savvy investors and businessmen they must have done some market analysis in order to decide to go ahead with their plan.

I would be interested in hearing their "why".

22WRF;
I am curious also; I guess I will find out more as the project moves forward. While I wish my friend well in his endeavor, I do not understand the reality behind these decisions. I have backed away from offering him advice and going to concentrate on just maintaining our friendship; he has listened to his investors and made up his mind, arguing with him now will only serve to end our friendship.

When he headed off to SCI, his original plan was to build moderately priced quality hunting rifles based on the M98 design using the wide selection of off-the-shelf stocks and accessories that are available The rifles were not going to offer square bridges, extended tangs, or any of the other custom features that are seen on the currently available custom actions. I do not have a clue why he changed the type of actions he wanted to build after being at SCI, but that seems to have been some kind turning point for him. I am glad I turned down the offer to accompany him, it would have been disastrous to our friendship.

For my opinion, I would rather start with a decent military Mauser than either of his envisioned offerings. This is just my opinion but I fail to see where anything he intends to offer is not already widely available. From what I see, the Remington 798 or the plethora of push feed tubular receivers already available cover his intended product - albeit he may offer higher quality than regular factory production rifles. From my perspective, the only reason to base a new receiver on a 1903 action would be ease of manufacture; it offers few of the desirable features of the M98 and does not handle gas nearly as well.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
The 1903 is NOT a variation of the mauser. .. the "famous" patent suit was about the EXTRACTOR only .. no mauser 98 has a mag cut off or cocking piece, or frankly, anything else .. that's just silly talk...

Actually, I think the lawsuit was over stripper clips. And, yes, the Mauser does have a cocking piece, elsewise, how would it fire?

Still, I think the market for 1903's is rather small.

Hey, you know what mike.. you are RIGHT..

The 03 was a mixture of Krag and 1893 Mauser.
There are none of the 98 Mauser improvements
over the 93 involved. Particularly as to gas handling "gun writers" always screw this up.
Having said that, it wasn't the greatest
to make into a scoped sporter. Only cheap and available.
Take Care!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
The 03 was a mixture of Krag and 1893 Mauser.
There are none of the 98 Mauser improvements
over the 93 involved. Particularly as to gas handling "gun writers" always screw this up.
Having said that, it wasn't the greatest
to make into a scoped sporter. Only cheap and available.
Take Care!

Yeah, but they made some damn nice open sight sporters! And, some were slick as can be.

Thank you members of the forum;

It would seem that so far that my opinion is not really that far out in left field. I will keep in touch and let you know if/when he starts up. there is always hope that he might actually go back to his original intentions or give it up all together.

BTW, I did call him and ask about the 1903 choice and he said it was because it was easier to have incorporate the third lug in that design. I asked if he was using a third lug on his other design and he said that he was not and the only reason they were offering the other design was to satisfy the people that wanted a CRF action with a safety lug. Still seems like an odd choice to me but at least I have some idea of why they made that choice.

At risk of offending anyone that may be a member of this forum and also one of the investors, I would really re-consider what you are about to do; at least do more market research and figure out a better way to meet the customer's needs.

Actually, I think it's a very original idea.
So many folks have gone broke trying to make M98s that it's become mundane. These geniuses will get to go broke making Springfield and Remington clones.

Too much money and not enough brains. It's been the down fall of hundreds of corporations

The Springfield infringement was on the Mauser non rotating extractor, the staggered box and the stripper clip “assembly”.

I think it would be great if he starts making them in an “03 version, would be good to be able to pick up several when he has his going out of business sale. The Springfield would be more expensive to machine than a 98 Mauser, there is no cost savings there.

Both ideas sound like losers.

Present company excepted, if I were to build and action/rifle for today's market it would be stainless, lightweight, accept off the shelf scope mounts, and reliably feed the current short/fat magnums.

IMHO, anything else is a vanity project, as purists will scoff at cost cutting measures and the general public won't spend for a genuine, M98 or '03 clone. Selling 20 actions a year isn't likely to impress investors.

$0.02

I agree, GMA seems to be the people to beat for price point and quantity. It would be nice if the manufacturing information at the ATF website broke its figures down by the quantity of types of actions produced instead of just rifle and handgun totals per manufacturer.

I think the fact that no one piped up with a "Hey, this is just what I've been waiting for and I want one!" should tell you something.

I cant imagine why anyone would want a new mfg 03 action! i know some people love them, but i would never pay for this.

Update:

Just tonight I got a phone call from my friend; he is out of business without producing a single action. I am unhappy to see this happen to anyone in the business but I had a bad feeling from the start about this. He is now stuck in Denver without a job, lots of bills and is very unhappy. He says there is the possibility he can find work as a machinist there but he would rather be back home.

I asked him why things went south and he said the investors were experiencing money problems and decided to cut their losses. They sold the machinery, got out of the lease and left him in the lurch. It is too bad that he did not make a go of it, I would have liked to see him realize his dream.

I know for a fact I wouldnt invest a red cent into that business....

Why? Because a quick search on Gunbroker will net you about 1500 reasons NOT to buy the more expensive product that will be no different.

sorry bout your friend, if you have ever noticed the gun business is full of ego, lets make this , get rich, and well be the cats ass, ever wonder why Remington and Winchester, to name 2, keep making their stuff cheaper? hmmm, must be some reason, I dont care how nice you make a Springfield its still a Springfield,

I have noticed the ego problem, I tend to think of myself as one step removed from bubba even though I know better. There are so many out there that are as good as, if not better than me that I feel average. I guess that I tend to be very conservative and do the numbers because my instinct has been wrong so many times when you examine it in the cold hard light of day. Kind of keeps you out of trouble when you know approximately how much you do not know.

For shits and grins......the '98 Mauser has three items that made it unique

1. Cock on opening
2. staggered magazine
3. dual forward locking lugs

If any bolt action has these three things then it's a variant of the '98 Mauser....even the Remington 700...

As to making (any kind of) actions, this quote is interesting:

quote:

If they are savvy investors and businessmen they must have done some market analysis in order to decide to go ahead with their plan.

I believe the words to be theoretically correct.....but I'd lay odds that such a survey never happened. I'd wager that we're dealing with an emotion based decision and not a professionally studied market analysis.

I tend to agree this was an emotional decision also. One of the reasons I refused to assist this venture even when it was Mauser actions for the hunter is that I thought there were too many competitors for that market also. Unless you are making C-ring Mausers for the custom market, there are just too many competitors for bolt guns designed for hunting.

I cannot think of any reason I would want a springfield action over a 98 style action and there are a plethora of push feed tubular actions available, I could not find any viewpoint from which it made sense. I guess each man has his own form of poison, I think I know all of mine by this stage of life; at least I hope I do.

Reproduction nostalgia only... But there are better choices out there in a Bolt rifle.

You can't compare this situation to say the Springfield M1A or their version of the Garand As those rifles have have no competition other then surplus and the demand is considerably more.

A bolt action to be able to make money need to be mass produced and unique in design. something highly desirable. There's just not that much that has not already been done.

KC,

I couldn't agree more. Looking at nostalgia, I doubt there would even be that much demand for Newton replicas if one started that line up. If there is a demand, It would not last more than a few hundred guns at best. I just cannot see how it is profitable. Like you said in another post, be a tool and die maker, machinist or something else, the money will be better, and then yo can work at becoming a gunmaker or gunsmith. I know I can make more money as a logistics geek than I ever could at gunsmithing or gunmaking; that is why it is still a personal hobby for me.

BTW Nice work on the Argie, If you go the rust bluing route, I have used a refridgerator and heat lamp to make a rusting chamber. You can even hook up a thermostat through a relay to regulate the heat. Also used a old waterheater (among other things) that had been modified to boil the parts in. I cut the top off and left the flame tube open on the top then bypassed the thermostat. terribly innefficient but it was all I had at the time.