I was running a high fever a while back. I must have been. Out of the blue I told Lois, "Honey, you have been busting your ass lately, I appreciate it." "Is there anything I can do this summer to help you with your work?"

After I revived her from the shock induced coma, life went on as normal (i.e. nuts).

Yesterday she said, "Why don't you get a mill, lathe and welder?" "You like to make stuff, and especially make a mess; why not do it up right?"

Soooooooooooooo....

We have a new shipping container that we will convert to a shop.

Used equipment, obviously. Manual (though my older eyes wouldn't object to digital controls).

American made, just, just because.

I can sell some rifles and get a paper route to help pay for this stuff.

I figured out how to fly jet fighters, do some surgeries and cohabitate in relative peace with a woman, so I think I can figure out how to play with this stuff.

Recommendations, please.

Thank you all in advance.

lawndart

Lawndart

Do you have a VCR (you know, that old thing that came before the DVDs)

American made?.....Aint no such thing any more.....but Bridgeport in mills comes to mind!!!

Clausing in Lathes and K O Lee for surface grinders are names to look at.

Also check out Miller's econotig!!!

I like Miller welders. Smoother than lincolns and others . Ya goinna get a TIG?

Sounds like your wife is a keeper

I'd be suspicious of any woman who knows the difference between a lathe and a mill.

Vapodog is right, American made isn't quite what it use to be. I think that Bridgeport buys castings from Asia, the heads come from England and they are assemblied in the US. Nothing appears to be what it is.

You might try hitting some of the machine tool auctions, I've seen some interesting machines go for cheap prices. But the down side is that the machine might need to be rebuilt. Also supplies like cutters and the like. Last year I bought 300 carbide cutters for about $500, that's a life time buy for me.

I bought a new Miller ecnotig a few years ago and I love it. I ran machines for 35 years, but never did much welding. I look foreward to welding jobs.

quote:

Lawndart

Do you have a VCR (you know, that old thing that came before the DVDs)

As a matter of fact, I do. I also have a TV set. It isn't hooked up to anything for television reception (never got the habit), but we watch two or three movies a year.

LD

Lawndart

Well, the reason I ask is becasue a few years ago I purchased the Machine Shop course from AGI, which consisted of a whole bunch of video tapes on running a lathe and running a Milling Machine. I think there are 13 tapes on the lathe and 9 or 10 on running the milling machine.

Seeing as how you are a good guy (living out there in no mans land taking care of those good folk when you could be in the big city hauling in the big bucks) I figured maybe if you wanted to look at all of these tapes I might lend them to you.

The machines they use in the tapes are an older Bridgeport Mill and a South Bend lathe.

Interested?

quote:

I like Miller welders. Smoother than lincolns and others . Ya goinna get a TIG?

Sounds like your wife is a keeper

Yep, TIG it is.

Lois and I are living in sin. I was married once. When you do that, the sex stops. I don't want to take any chances.

LD

22WRF,

I am interested, and would be most grateful.

I'll send a PM.

We actually have TWO VCRs, for the usual reason .

Thank you,

LD

quote:

Vapodog is right, American made isn't quite what it use to be. I think that Bridgeport buys castings from Asia, the heads come from England and they are assemblied in the US. Nothing appears to be what it is.

You might try hitting some of the machine tool auctions, I've seen some interesting machines go for cheap prices. But the down side is that the machine might need to be rebuilt. Also supplies like cutters and the like. Last year I bought 300 carbide cutters for about $500, that's a life time buy for me.

I bought a new Miller ecnotig a few years ago and I love it. I ran machines for 35 years, but never did much welding. I look foreward to welding jobs.

Nothing is as it appears. Way of the world these days.

There is a place in Meridian (by Boise) called Idaho Machinery that buys and sells used and new from all over the Northwest. It would cost more to go through them, but it would cost me a lot more going to auctions without any knowledge . They give a one year warranty. I have a couple of friends (okay, distant acquaintances) whose companies do business with Idaho Machinery. They said they are willing to keep me out of too much trouble for a while.

Maybe I can open a BoTox boutique in the local shopping mall to finance this deal. The best thing about BoTox is that without frown lines, the other guy doesn't realize how pissed you are at him. You can knock his nose off his face before he even realizes you were ticked off.

LD

LD:

Am gonna shake up the pro's with this one!!
I ran a lathe for a few yrs way back in the mid '60's til the place shut down and couldn't find another machining job. SO, as I had some little one's and a house to pay for took the first decent paying job that came along: longhaul trucking. Never went back.

Anyway, what I'm getting to, check out www.smithy.com, they've got some good looking, fairly priced mills and lathes, their main products are combo's, I got a good deal on a 24" combo my boy picked up on a trade for mechanic work. Otherwise I wouldn't have one yet. But, I'm satisfied on the quality. Do wish it was auto feed though.

Am just suggesting you check their products out is all. Much more affordable than a lot of machines.

George

LD,

What I'd do first is run some ads in the paper for a few weeks and hope someone has dads old lathe in the basement collecting dust. Also, you must have treated some machinists for something, look up their numbers and call them up and ask them if they know of anyone selling some machinery. They'd also be a good resource to help learn from, but most usually can only answer well thought out questions from you, and may not be that good at explaining operations to you.

My concern in making a shop out of a container is you'll need to support the floor under the machines, not for strength most likely but for stability. It could be only a minor detail, such as putting down some plate steel first, but do keep it in mind.

Remember to keep the welder by the front door so you don't suffocate yourself and also so you can drag the cables outside and weld on lawnmowers and stuff.

You know, I was thinking about the shipping container, these machines need a steady base. A Bridgeport weights around 2500 pounds, and a lathe weights about the same. I've never been in a shipping container, but you might consider a concret floor with some steel in it. For a surface grinder a good floor is a must.

For doing any barrel work, try to find a lathe that is at least 36-inches between centers. Also the bore through the head stock need bo be at least 1.375-inches.

I thought about the vibration issue for a couple days.

There is a wood products company near me that makes laminated beams for construction projects. These suckers are very strong and stable.

I'm planning on completely lining the floor of the container with a 3 1/2" thick transverse layer of heavy duty decking consiting of three plies. On top of that would be a layer of dense rubber, or a polymer that has the property of deadening vibrations. On top of that would be a six inch thick by three foot wide beam that would run the entire 22' length of the container. Then a steel plate and finally the machine. All the flooring would be tied into the container.

I did something on a smaller scale when I built the flat bed for my Toyota. The frame is steel. By itself it flexes like crazy. I laid in fourteen of the decking laminate pieces, and bolted each laminate piece to the fram in four places. The resulting flat bed is very stiff and strong without being too heavy at all.

It is sort of like the monocoque race car construction that started in the 1960's.

The container itself is going to be a couple feet off the ground on a frame of pressure treated lumber (much cheaper than large concrete footings or a thick concrete pad).
I'll put polymer or rubber (Chunks of new heavy duty truck tires with a zillion plies from blown tires) between the wood and the container. That should isolate it from road vibrations from a nearby (450') state highway.

That's the plan at present, anyway.

Those Smithys look neat, but I will probably get the urge to build something bigger after a while. You know how that goes.......

LD

PS Good point about the welder!!!! Plus, I need the cables to reach the house in case Lois starts snoring again next winter.

What I would do for the floor is pour concrete.

Cut some holes through the floor and put some tube footings into the earth and then frame it all up with 2X4 lumber with a healthy amount of scrap iron in it, and pour that. You dont have to do all of the container, but say maybe the back 1/3 if its a 40 footer and back 1/2 if it's a 20 footer. However, if it is going to be in one spot for a decade or so I'd pour the entire floor and be done with it.

This would also have the advantage that you can level the floors precisely before you install your equipment.

I had six inches of concrete poured in the third bay of my garage for my tools....wish I would have done 8" now.

The first winter, I didn't have the furnace hooked up yet - while it was a mild winter, the floor was pretty active, as every time I checked the level on my Clausing 10", it was no less than .020 out of square.

Since the furnace has been installed(and in the spring/summer/fall, when the temp is more stable), it hasn't been out more than .005, which isn't worth messing with for the type of work I do.

I've got my lathe from a high school vocational center in Ohio that was closing its machine shop program due to lack of interest/funding. It was the machine the teacher used for his use/demonstration....and ended up being basically free, as they couldn't get anybody interested in ANY of the machines. Too bad I didn't have the room to store some of the other stuff at the time.

At least one local junior college around the Chicago area is closing their machine shop programs, and from what I understand are being low balled(by the machinery buyers) to the point they might as well sell the stuff for scrap metal prices. There is some nice stuff, especially at Triton College, but haven't been able to make the connection yet, even after recommending to them who to approach about making a purchase offer on it all. Funny, they closed the program, now none of their old instructors will help them liquidate the stuff(exactly what I'd do as well).

LD,

I'm thinking a record of this would form the basis of a fine series of magazine articles, or maybe a book. You know, the "who, what, when, where, why and how" of your process. I expect there are a couple of us who have mis-spent our lives avoiding manual labor - you know, the guys who took calculus in highschool who now wish we'd taken Shop.

Jaywalker

Don't get too caught up in the "buy American" thought rut. I have no idea what your finacial situation is, but be prepared to go "HOW MUCH?!" when looking at used 20-50 year old American equip.
If you can find a great deal on a lightly used 20 year old American machine go for it...but you could spend the next ten years looking for it. The big tool room lathes are typically used and used hard and will need to be rebuilt, other wise they wouldn't be for sale.
For the home shop user that would rather use the equipment than spend the next two years after puchase rebuilding it, it will be much more cost freindly to buy a new import than spending the cost of the used lathe X2 to have it rebuilt.
If you want a "known quality" machine, ie new and tight and you want it in a reasonable amount of time don't be too quick to turn your nose up at the imports. I bought a Grizzly 13x40 engine lathe with the foot brake, coolant pump and carriage mounted light last December and I'm tickled pink with it. It's very acurate and easy to use. My only complaint is the slowest feed rate is .002"/rev; I wish it were down around .0005"/rev for fine finish work. It;s rigid enough that it was acctually difficult to get perfectly level.

For a lathe, you'll want a 13 x 40 min and a 14x40 is better just because there is more mass (iron) in the machine. A 36" (18" travel) table Bridgeport will do just about everything (except full length octogon barrles in one set up). They also fit better in a small shop.

Save your self the headaches now, put in a 6"-8" re-enforce concrete slab. Compared to the cost of the machines you have listed, that's a cheap investment that will pay big dividens when it comes to keeping the equipment square and level. Wood floors are great to work on, but every six months you'll be chasing the machine-level as the wood floor absorbs and lets off humidity.

Mechanical Engineer, by education,
Manufacturing Engineer by profession,
Machinist by trade. I love my trade, the rest is just a paycheck.

Lawndart,

I'm in a similar predicament. I decided to set myself up to prepare for full-time so contracted just yesterday to have the slab poured for my new shop. I've been researching mills and lathes and I think I'm going to buy a Birmingham 14 x 40 lathe and a 9 x 49 mill. My brother has the same lathe with the Central Machine logo on it and it does just fine. He has a ten-year old ENCO 10 x 54 mill that also does just fine. So far the best deal I've found is Bill's Tool Crib who can deliver both for less than 10K. I already have Miller TIG and MIG welders as well as an old surface grinder. Good luck!

And BTW, I haven't found your comment on marriage to be true. It's been just shy of 28 years for us and only thing I can figure is you must'a been doin' something wrong.

Lawndart:

Here's a deal for you; why not pay me room and board and a small stipend and I will come out during deer and elk season to show you how to do all this stuff. maybe even throw in one of the local gals (decent looking and lonely) to keep me from getting bored. With your checkbook and my experience, we could really make a team.

JC,

this is the single most important piece you would never think of
Spindlesquare - trams your mill in seconds, and allows you to tram TO the surface of the work... for interesting things like barrel dovetails
$150
http://www.wttool.com/p/1289-0600

this is the mill you want, $2600 delivered and can be LATER upgraded to cnc
30x12x5 TRAVEL with a 40x9 table -- you do NOT want a round column import, and this thing is like the PERFECT gunsmith mill.

http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Products/square_column_mill.htm

~4000, i would look for a 15" lathe, as they generally have the through hole and WEIGHT to be accurate. I would look for a leblond/nardini. 15x60 would be fine, and a SHORT bed (36 or 48) wouldn't hurt, and generally goes for less money. monarches are amazing lathes, but the through hole tends to be smaller

add 500 for shipping

welder .. me, I would get a CHEAP tig welder,
like this -- i have a big thermal arc, and nearly NEVER go above 60amps for gun related stuff.. and 3/8 is usually only 120 amps.

(thermalarcs START at 1800)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7624...9&fromMakeTrack=true

i would then buy a hobart TRUE mig welder


http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-180-MIG-500506-CART-...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
785 - includes bottl and regulator that can work on both welders...

bout 1100 bucks for a tig and mig, which of course can do stick as well, so you have all major processes covered

you'll also need a torch, even if just pony bottles..
500 total

surface grinder -- this would be the LAST thing I bought, and harbour fright ahs them for 699!!

i would, however add
"import 6" cnc vise" for the mill. $129 from wholesale tool. will drop with into the mill table

TWO 1/2" boltdown kits 40 each

123 blocks - 40 bucks

starrette 12" precision level, $200 ebay

hand full of machinist jacks, 4 bucks each

tslot scraper 5 bucks

harbour freight coolant pump, get 2, 50 bucks each

and of course collects, boring bars, chucks... so probably right at 11K to fill your shop

put aside 1000 for misc tooling

what I would get before a surface grinder is a BIG baldor pedestal grinder, 10 or 12", and a big buffing only buffer/arbour... and the set of wheels and grits.

oh, yeah, while the surface grinder would be cool, a $229 6x48 belt, 12" disk grinder from HF, with a replacement motor, kicks butt for installing pads and varius off hand grinding work.

on chucks, get jacobs, a 0 to 3/8 KEYED, and 1/2 keyless.. and a JUNKER 3/4" keyed, as a through away, as you'll want that from time to time.

oh, and one of the best "have it around" are a set of edge finders and a coax

jeffe

Lawndart... I'll come up and pour you a nice slab with wall footings, plenty of rea bar, 8-10" thick if you want! Frame up a nice shop too!! Been in the concrete business for 30 years...

you need to listen to everybody that is pushing a concrete floor. a lathe will taper on you if the floor starts shifting. a phase converter will work if you can't get three phase. single phase limits your welding machine choices also. you can find good american machines. all used machines will require some tlc. for used machines get on to locatoronline.com. it helps if you know what your looking for. get a subscription to Home Shop Machinist, some real good information in there. on a mill if you have the room you can get a K&T for about the same price you'll pay for a Bridgeport, and you would never look back. the only lathes i have are Leblond's. there still in business as Leblond Ltd. if you have a lathe from 1903 and need a part they will have it on the shelf. good luck.
about the magazine Home Shop Machinist, Iv'e had my own shop for a while now but some of those hobby boys will make me run with my tail between my legs. really good stuff in there. last year they had a series of articles about completely stripping down a lathe and rebuilding it you self. great stuff.

Oh Boy, welcome to the world of being a real toy junkie. I too have gone that route of buying equipment and setting up a small (10x30) shop within my larger (30x40) shop. I have 3 lathes; a 20s/30s vintage 9" South Bend that I bought before I knew squat about them (so therefore not very useful) and a later 9" SB A model that I acquired along with a SB Heavy 10" tool room model from an Oklahoma University that was upgrading the equipment in a class because the new instructor thought the current import machines were better. The latter are both nice machines and the only reason I bought the 9" was the price was right. The Heavy 10 is more idealy suited to gun work, although the bed is a bit shorter than "desired". A mill is to come later. Grinders, polishers and an endless array of tools both measuring, clamping, cutting, boring and turning will be needed. BIG THING; when you buy a lathe, get the best tooled one you can. Tooling is expensive. Anyway, you have been given good advise by everyone concerning equipment.

The flooring issue is a valid one, you don't want to be worrying about your macines shifting and needing to be set up everytime you go to use them.

One area no one seems to have touched on is power requirements. This can be a real headache unless it is thought out in advance. 3 Phase power is not readily available at most homes. Therefore, us home machinest types have to make decisions about how to run equipment that quite often has 3 phase motors. There are VFDs, RPCs, static converters and of course the swap to single phase to consider. I went with a RPC (rotary power converter bought not built) as my solution. I sized it large enough to handle the largest machine I would have and am quite happy. Other methods work also. This is just something you need to look at and consider. Lighting is another issue. Can't have too much (you can always turn them off). Wall plugs are the same. I have them at 4 ft intervals in my shops. So there's a few more thoughts to ponder. Also wire to code, then an insurance adjuster can't blame you if something happens.

Grizzly has a very nice on line shop planner that is free to use. http://www.grizzly.com/ You can size things and they even have diagrams on equipment that can be sized and used to place your benches, grinders, and machines in place to see how it will fit. Heck of a lot easier than moving it around in the shop!

A couple of good sites to visit in the tool arena are http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ and http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/. Lots of helpful folks there. Kinda like AR. Good luck and get ready to have a ball.

Lawndart

Before you decide on a phase converter you might want to give Tom Burgess a quick call or write him an email. He can tell you about the troubles of not having the right type of phase conversion.

You might want to consider these folks.

http://www.phaseperfect.com/

I use a rotary phase converter on my surface grinder.....all I can say is that it just plain works....it is not the same as original three phase juice but it works just fine.

LawnDart--With this handle, you must have been an F-16 driver. Ever stationed at Hill AFB?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I use a rotary phase converter on my surface grinder.....all I can say is that it just plain works....it is not the same as original three phase juice but it works just fine.

My round ram Bridgport is running off a homebuilt rotary and it hums along just fine.

Hey Rusty I can go one even better than that- I built a rotary phase converter for a friends Bridgeport.

Now I have a mill to use without the hassles of tooling or competing shop space!

sounds like a great way to go.

I always liked the barter system.

Get the vfd, mucho better.

Log onto "Practicle machinist" all kinds of machines , and great info.
Good luck!

This machining thing is addictive as well.....I just unloaded my shaper.....that's for machining raceways in prehardened receivers of 4140....there's no end to it!!!!!

I'll post photos tomorrow.

Ya just gotta have a shaper if you're too cheap to buy a wire EDM!!!

what size and brand shaper?
My dad has a 7" south bend I keep trying to talk him out of. He uses it once about every 5-7 years. I tell him if I hold it for him it'll give him an accuse to come visit his grand children more often.

Get Mark Strattons book and CD. A must have. Okay you need the machines and the power but his book is priceless. Well it does have a price, lol. How about a great bargain, better term to use. I could go delete the other stuff I typed but it would take too long.

The only thing I would add to all of this is to try to find a lathe that not only has micrometer-settable automatic way "stops", but one which also has automatic micrometer- settable crossfeed stops. My next-door neighbor has a beautiful little Canadian-made 13x40 lathe with both those and it is so handy I have dreamt of "volunteering" him as a test pilot for "smart" missles just so I can buy it from his estate sale! (Besides that, he has 6 big milling machines and 8 or 9 lathes with beds up to 14', so he doesn't need that little Canadian doll anyway.)

Jealousy? Envy? You bet!

quote:

LD,

I'm thinking a record of this would form the basis of a fine series of magazine articles, or maybe a book. You know, the "who, what, when, where, why and how" of your process. I expect there are a couple of us who have mis-spent our lives avoiding manual labor - you know, the guys who took calculus in highschool who now wish we'd taken Shop.

Jaywalker

No shit about the calculus. I have used it a lot, but I wish I had done machine shop and welding also.

I'll definitely take some pictures.

LD

quote:

I had six inches of concrete poured in the third bay of my garage for my tools....wish I would have done 8" now.

I'm getting the message here about the slab.

That's what is necessary, so that is what will be done. Time to look for a small parcel of land above the water line. Fortunately that is easy to find out here in the desert .

LD

quote:

And BTW, I haven't found your comment on marriage to be true. It's been just shy of 28 years for us and only thing I can figure is you must'a been doin' something wrong.

John Farner, Major USAF (ret)

Marriage is fine. It is my picker that is broken. A man has to know his limits. I know mine.

LD