The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Savage 99C trigger pullGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
I have a Savage 99C in .308 Winchester. With a round in the chamber, the trigger pull must be around 15 pounds. I almost cannot get it to break so the rifle will fire. When I dry fire it, the trigger pull is light and smooth. The bolt will also move slightly forward and down, as if it is pivoting on the bottom rear of the bolt. Any thoughts? | ||
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| one of us |
The movement you describe is not unusual... As to the 15 Lb. pull you really stumped my on that one...It should be the same loaded or unloaded...The sear rides on the bolt and is contained by a spring tension in the bolt...I'd have to look at that one....better take it to a gunsmith...A good enough trigger job can be done on the 99... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
You may have gunk in the chamber, that might prevent it from closing all the way. Try cleaning the chamber. | |||
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| one of us |
This is a rifle I bought used. I read some of your suggestions. The chamber is clean and free of obstructions. I chambered the empty case of a round I earlier fired in the rifle. It chambered freely and I then dry fired with that casing in the chamber. The trigger broke clean and light as if there were no round in the chamber. I then loaded a live round. It had a Sierra 150 gr SBT seated at 2.750. The round chambered fully, but it was a tight fit. When I fired it, the trigger was very heavy and it took a major effort to make the trigger fire the rifle. I then chambered a round loaded with a Sierra 165 gr BTHP at 2.800. Again it was a very tight fit. I then removed the round and noticed that the bullet was pushed back in the case. I then measured it at 2.740. | |||
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| <BigBores> |
I'd say without looking at the gun that it sounds like the bolt is under tension from forcing the bullet into the case. And this is causing the linkage to be bound up. Thus the trigger is stiff due to linkage being slightly out of true. Sounds like you're already onto it though. Try seating the bullets deeper and back the powder charge down as well due to deeper seating reducing case capacity. But I'm sure you knew that. | ||
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| <RENRAF> |
Robert, Have you tried factory ammo? I used to have a BLR that had a similar problem. My normal reloads chamberd hard, but fact. ammo was fine. The fix was to get special dies (not custom) small ring? maybe? Then to do a full length resize, not just neck. Anybody out there know what I'm talking about? | ||
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| one of us |
It does the same with factory ammo as it does with reloads. I full length size all my cases and I use a cartridge case gauge to set the sizing die. All cases are trimmed to minimum length. Since the bullets are being pushed back, is this a case of too little free bore? If so, how much work is it to have the free bore area extended?. | |||
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| <Bill Tompkins> |
RENRAF, I think the dies to which you are referring are called "small base". The folks that shoot semi auto use them most frequently. But it sounds like you and everyone else are correct about the resizing. I had the exact same problem with a 99 in .243 and the dies made a difference. Bill | ||
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| <RENRAF> |
Thanks Bill! The small base thing was escaping me. It is curious that factory ammo has the sake problem. Headspace maybe? | ||
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| <RENRAF> |
Robert, do you see rifleing on the bullet after you get it in the chamber? If not, I don't think it is an issue of too little freebore. Just my guess. | ||
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| <BigBores> |
quote: I don't think the bullet would have pushed back for any other reason than running into the rifling. It seems obvious to me, so what rookie thing am I missing? Magazine problems? That wouldn't make it chamber hard, as the interferance would be before chambering? Curiouser and curiouser, Robert can you do a chamber cast? I'd love to know if the chamber is SAAMI spec or not? | ||
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| one of us |
I took a marker and colored the bullet. I then placed the round half way into the chamber and closed the bolt, fully chambering the round. When I examined the extracted round there were no rifling marks on the bullet, but it was still pushed back from 2.800 to 2.740. I tend to agree with BigBores that only the rifling could be doing this. If I had a short chamber, I don't think the round would chamber all the way The loaded rounds that are over 2.740 in length chamber freely, although they feel tight when I close the bolt. The rounds that are now 2.740 in length chamber freely and the lockup doesn't feel as tight. As was said earlier, this is probably because the bolt isn't pushing the bullet into the rifling. There is a competent gunsmith 35 miles from here, or would it be better to send it to Savage? | |||
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| <RENRAF> |
You can rent a set of go/nogo gauges off the internet (www.reamerrentals.com) they are pretty inexpensive. I have loaded rounds too long before, and I always saw the rifleing marks, without any marking dye. Have you contacted Savage? They may be able to give you some insight. | ||
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| <BigBores> |
Robert, I'd call the smith 35 mi away and talk to him to get a feel for whether he can or wants to mess with it, and see if he has the go/no go gauges. I wouldn't send it to savage. There may not be anyone left there that even knows what a 99 looks like, let alone what to do with it. This is a wild idea, is the barrel marked 308 win? I don't know why I thought of it, but back in my competition days, some guys were "converting" M1 garands to 308 from 30-06 by dropping those chamber inserts in them and firing a 308 round to seat them. Pretty sorry results as I remember. May not be relevent at all... | ||
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| <Long Shot> |
Could it in fact be a .300 Savage? The .308 is only .008" longer than the .300 Sav at the sholder. | ||
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| one of us |
The barrel on it is a Savage barrel and it is marked .308 Win. Tomorrow I am going to the range and shoot 125 grain bullets through it. I want to see how the trigger does with rounds who's overall length is short enough that the bullet will not touch the rifling at all while being chambered. I'll let you know how it turns out. Even though I bought this rifle used, it looks brand new. The bluing is 100%, there are no wear marks on it anywhere. I think the previous owner must have had the same problem and rather than try to get it fixed, traded it in. | |||
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| one of us |
I took the rifle to the range today and shot rounds loaded with 125 grain Sierra bullets. These rounds chambered nicely and the trigger worked as it is supposed to, smooth and light. So, you were right, the pressure on the bolt from the bullet being pushed back into the case by the rifling is causing the linkage to bind up. Now when I talk to the gunsmith I can explain with some knowledge of the problem. I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and suggestions. That got me to thinking of things I haven't thought of yet. I'll let you know what the gunsmith says. | |||
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| one of us |
I shoot and custom build a 99 on ocasions.. The action locks up in the rear when the lever closes it pushes the bolt up and that bolt locks on a solid wall of steel, but the bolt portion is somewhat springy and allows brass to stretch more so than say a bolt action...This requires full lenth resizing to factory specs with a small base die for best results. In your situation the case has not been returned to factory specs by std. dies and it is necessary to squeeze the lever tight at the end of the lockup and when you fire the gun the bolt and the lever drops a mite, not a problem as this is the beginning of the lever cycle and this occurs immediately after firing, not during or before... You are also seating your bullet out too far and I suspect you did not try them to see if they fit in the rotary magazine, they probably would not have fit..(I'm assuming you did not have a clip gun...)The 99 works best with bullets of 150 grains or 165 grs. in 308 or 300 Savage caliber and with an OAL of factory specs.... there is no reason why the trigger should have been harder when loaded, that does not equate to the action design, there is no linkage on a 99 action as it works off the forward bar of the lever and the firing pin is cought on the sear of the lever under spring tension and that tension is the same from shot to shot...I would polish the sear surfaces and shorten them by approximately 40 ro 50 thousands or more, depending on the amount of drag which is abundant as a rule. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
My 150 grain reloads are 2.750 OAL. The 165 grain reloads are 2.800 OAL. These rounds fit in the detachable clip. My sizing dies are set using a cartridge case gauge. If I use reloads with bullets seated less than 2.740 chamber fine and the trigger release is smooth and light. I tried factory 150 grain rounds and I had the same problem as with my reloads, all of the bullets are pushed back into the case and I almost cannot get the trigger to fire the rifle. There may be no logical reason for this, but this is what happens. I am not at all familiar with the design of this rifle, I am going off of what others have told me, for some reason rounds with an OAL over 2.740 causes problems with the trigger. Rounds that have a OAL under 2.740 do not cause this problem. | |||
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| one of us |
I have had a million 99's apart and I cannot for the life of me figure out why the force required to seat a bullet in the chamber would effect the trigger pull... Are both of these guns clip guns, that could be the answer, as I have never worked on that later design and it could be very different inside... On a standard rotary magazine 99 the trigger works of the cocking piece that runs diagnally thorugh the bolt surrounded by a very strong spring..The sear is on the trigger..Once the bolt is jammed upwards adn locked into firing position, the spring is suppressed and the cocking piece is holding on the sear, the trigger is pulled and the sear slides down (that where that creep comes from)the cocking pieces opposing face (sear) and the firing pin (surrounded by the heavy spring) goes forward and fires the gun...Just offhand I can see no relation between the two... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Used to load for a 99 in 243. All I can say is don't bother. The action is springy. The reloads will be extremely difficult to resize to fit the chamber properly again. The alternate resizing and stretching will cause case head seperations. Keep your case extractor or .45 brush handy. It is an excellent hunting rifle to be sure but loading for the 99 left a bad taste in my mouth. Since it is a no nonsense hunting rifle I suggest sticking to factory ammo or new brass. Just re read the original post. If military .308 brass is being used all bets are off. They were probably shot in in an M-60 and will have "Fat Heads". | |||
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| one of us |
Scot, The use of small base dies solve all the M-99 reloading problems as they return the case to factory specs...Cases have a tendency to stretch but today one can get small base X dies and all the woes of the old days of loading the 99 have passed...  ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I have taken the case of a round I just fired in my Savage and re-chambered it and it chambers just fine. Empty cases that I have full length resized with a regular die chamber just fine. If I bought a small base sizing die, would that solve the problem of my bullets getting pushed back into the case? | |||
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| <BigBores> |
Robert, One of the hardest things to do is to fix a gun or any other mechanical thing long distance. I am sure if Ray, or some of these other guys had your gun in their hands to examine in person, they would see the problem immediately. OK, that said... The dies will make NO DIFFERENCE in your particular rifle exibiting this particular problem. PERIOD. The problem is not the dies at all, it simply cannot be based on your very clear description of the problem. These guys are pasteing their past real remembered problems with other specific 99's to your problem. Not related. I'm sure Ray has worked on far more rifles than I have even handled, but respectfully, he misses the point entirely. Even factory ammo in 150grs is doing it. Fired cases are not. Once the OAL drops to 2.740 or below, there is no problem, even reloads with your current dies work. Concentrating on the OAL issue is where we need to be. I really think there is something Disney (Goofy) going on inside your chamber. The freebore is all out of whack. If I'm missing something here, then Ray, do me a favor and explain it to me like I'm 4 years old (preferably with a tire iron), cause I must be even dumber than I thought I was, as if that where possible. I almost wonder now if your gun has been rebarreled from another 99, or if the barrel has been taken off, turned, and reinstalled to fix a throating problem, and just not re-finish reamed correctly. I propose that the trigger pull issue is due to the moving parts in the action are not perfectly lined up in the relationship they need to be in, in order for the trigger to work the way it was intended to. This mis-alignment is caused by the force being exerted rearward on the bolt from the bullet being driven into the case. This extra pressure surely exceeds the intended design of the engineer/gunsmith who designed the action. Whenever you exceed design intentions in mechanical devices, unusual problems can occur. I think this is one of those times. If a resized empty case will chamber, and NO round over 2.740 will chamber without excessive force, then I say we put the die issue to bed and look elsewhere. If you buy new dies, you will only have new dies and still have a rifle that won't chamber rounds. I think you should either: 1. Buy a set of GO-NOGO gauges for 308 and try them in your chamber. 2. Take it to a gunsmith that can do a chamber cast, and see exactly what the dimensions are for your chamber. 3. Hunt down the guy you bought it from and offer to show him how to use a 99 as a bat. Just my opinion, (except for the bat part!) Don't want to ruffle any feathers, and I hope I have not. | ||
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| <BigBores> |
Robert, I forgot to mention, I wouldn't continue to shoot the rifle with the hard shooting loads until this is all sorted out. Also, I consulted my notebook at home, and my brother has a Savage BOLT gun in 30-06, that I have to seat bullets a full TENTH of an inch shorter than any of the other 30-06's that I load for, all are production guns. I know its apples and oranges, but I think I recall others with similar experience with Savage bolt guns and short freebore. It might also be characteristic of your 99? I don't do loads for his old -06 much anymore or maybe I would have thought of it sooner? OK, Ray I'm ready now. Have you got your tire iron? I'm ready for my lessons.LOL. | ||
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| one of us |
Big Bore, I don't have a problem with what you said for the most part and if the gun chambers the handloads "as loosly" as it does factory then that is unusual for a 99, in which case the dies are not the problem....the 99 does however tend to stretch cases more than a bolt.... BUT the problem of the trigger being hard to pull does not correlate with the working system of the 99.. I fully understand the function of the 99 action and I cannot see how, under any circumstances this heavy stress on the trigger could be taking place when the gun is loaded..It puzzles me and disturbs me if something is taking place that I can't pinpoint...I have taken a million of them apart.... I wish he would contact Savage and ask for an explanition, however these days they would probably tell him the watch-a-ma- callet is dirty...damn beancounters. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I took the rifle to a gunsmith. He said that it short throated. The reason the trigger pull is heavy with a round over 2.740 in the chamber is that it is a very tight fit with the bullet jammed into the rifling and the bolt is not completely locking up. If I want to reload for it, I would have to load the rounds to a OAL of under 2.740. What do you think? Get rid of the rifle, load only lighter bullets (125 gr)or seat the heavier ones deeper. | |||
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| one of us |
Robert, Take it to another gunsmith...The tightness of the round in the chamber cannot effect the trigger pull...If the gun locks into firing position then all is well, as it has engaged and closed, if not closed it won't fire...check and see it the bolt comes up in back and butts up against the back of the frame, thats how it closes and locks shut.... If the gun is short throated then all one would have to do is trim the cases, but I doubt that it is....Did he take a chamber cast?? thats the only way to tell if the gun is short throated... Your cases may have stretched and need trimming as Savages need to have the case trimmed almost every firing with max loads. or better yet get RCBS X-dies... All the above is applicable, but none of this has a thing to do with the trigger pull. It's a seperate operation.... What type of Safty does your gun have a tang safty on top or a lever safty?? ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
A couple of things you might check. Slip a bullet into a fired case and make sure it is an easy slip fit. Your chamber could have a tight neck. To check throating neck size a case down about 1/8 in., insert a bullet point down and then carefully chamber and extract the case. Since the base is full diameter it will show you how long your throat is. If it is short it is very easy/inexpensive to have it lengthened. Hope this helps. C.G.B. | |||
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| one of us |
The one I took it to didn't do a chamber cast. It has a tang safety on top. There is another gunsmith close by who I am going to take it to. | |||
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| <BigBores> |
Robert, If you like the gun and it fits your needs, then I say have it throated and use it the way you intended it the first place. If you bought it only for investment or resale, then I wouldn't touch it, and just resell it. I will be predictable in my response and say I think the gunsmith is right and its just a throat issue (sorry Ray). But if you can get a chamber cast done that would put these old guys to bed finally, only if you post the dimensions here. LOL | ||
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| one of us |
Well, I wish someone would tell me how a short throat effects trigger pull or how a flat tire effects a overheating radiator... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I finally received the rifle back from the gun doctor. The chamber was 2/thousands of an inch under minimum. He fixed the chamber length and polished it up. Now she works just fine. | |||
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| <BigBores> |
Well, all's well that ends well. Enjoy your 99, and good shooting. | ||
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| one of us |
Ray, The trigger mechanism on the clip fed Savage is indeed different than on the classic 99s you are used to. The original 99s have what I would call a direct acting trigger while the tang safety models use an overiding type trigger made of stampings. Strange binding up problems are not unusual. They may even be affected by the phase of the moon though I have no hard data to back this up! Regards, Bill. | |||
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