Any thoughts?
As to the 15 Lb. pull you really stumped my on that one...It should be the same loaded or unloaded...The sear rides on the bolt and is contained by a spring tension in the bolt...I'd have to look at that one....better take it to a gunsmith...A good enough trigger job can be done on the 99...
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Ray Atkinson
Does the bolt lock up all the way when the lever is in battery, all the way closed? Try a spent casing in the chamber and slowly close the lever watching the bolt, does it travel forward and lock up? Is this a recent acquisition, or have you owned it long time?
Sounds like a lot more than trigger problems, I hope you know a quality smith that knows '99's.
quote:
Originally posted by Robert D. Lyons:
I then chambered a round loaded with a Sierra 165 gr BTHP at 2.800. Again it was a very tight fit. I then removed the round and noticed that the bullet was pushed back in the case. I then measured it at 2.740.
I don't think the bullet would have pushed back for any other reason than running into the rifling. It seems obvious to me, so what rookie thing am I missing? Magazine problems? That wouldn't make it chamber hard, as the interferance would be before chambering? Curiouser and curiouser, Robert can you do a chamber cast? I'd love to know if the chamber is SAAMI spec or not?
The loaded rounds that are over 2.740 in length chamber freely, although they feel tight when I close the bolt. The rounds that are now 2.740 in length chamber freely and the lockup doesn't feel as tight. As was said earlier, this is probably because the bolt isn't pushing the bullet into the rifling.
There is a competent gunsmith 35 miles from here, or would it be better to send it to Savage?
I'd call the smith 35 mi away and talk to him to get a feel for whether he can or wants to mess with it, and see if he has the go/no go gauges. I wouldn't send it to savage. There may not be anyone left there that even knows what a 99 looks like, let alone what to do with it.
This is a wild idea, is the barrel marked 308 win? I don't know why I thought of it, but back in my competition days, some guys were "converting" M1 garands to 308 from 30-06 by dropping those chamber inserts in them and firing a 308 round to seat them. Pretty sorry results as I remember. May not be relevent at all...
Even though I bought this rifle used, it looks brand new. The bluing is 100%, there are no wear marks on it anywhere. I think the previous owner must have had the same problem and rather than try to get it fixed, traded it in.
I want to thank everyone for their thoughts and suggestions. That got me to thinking of things I haven't thought of yet.
I'll let you know what the gunsmith says.
The action locks up in the rear when the lever closes it pushes the bolt up and that bolt locks on a solid wall of steel, but the bolt portion is somewhat springy and allows brass to stretch more so than say a bolt action...This requires full lenth resizing to factory specs with a small base die for best results.
In your situation the case has not been returned to factory specs by std. dies and it is necessary to squeeze the lever tight at the end of the lockup and when you fire the gun the bolt and the lever drops a mite, not a problem as this is the beginning of the lever cycle and this occurs immediately after firing, not during or before...
You are also seating your bullet out too far and I suspect you did not try them to see if they fit in the rotary magazine, they probably would not have fit..(I'm assuming you did not have a clip gun...)The 99 works best with bullets of 150 grains or 165 grs. in 308 or 300 Savage caliber and with an OAL of factory specs....
there is no reason why the trigger should have been harder when loaded, that does not equate to the action design, there is no linkage on a 99 action as it works off the forward bar of the lever and the firing pin is cought on the sear of the lever under spring tension and that tension is the same from shot to shot...I would polish the sear surfaces and shorten them by approximately 40 ro 50 thousands or more, depending on the amount of drag which is abundant as a rule.
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Ray Atkinson
I am not at all familiar with the design of this rifle, I am going off of what others have told me, for some reason rounds with an OAL over 2.740 causes problems with the trigger. Rounds that have a OAL under 2.740 do not cause this problem.
Are both of these guns clip guns, that could be the answer, as I have never worked on that later design and it could be very different inside...
On a standard rotary magazine 99 the trigger works of the cocking piece that runs diagnally thorugh the bolt surrounded by a very strong spring..The sear is on the trigger..Once the bolt is jammed upwards adn locked into firing position, the spring is suppressed and the cocking piece is holding on the sear, the trigger is pulled and the sear slides down (that where that creep comes from)the cocking pieces opposing face (sear) and the firing pin (surrounded by the heavy spring) goes forward and fires the gun...Just offhand I can see no relation between the two...
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Ray Atkinson
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Ray Atkinson
One of the hardest things to do is to fix a gun or any other mechanical thing long distance. I am sure if Ray, or some of these other guys had your gun in their hands to examine in person, they would see the problem immediately. OK, that said...
The dies will make NO DIFFERENCE in your particular rifle exibiting this particular problem. PERIOD. The problem is not the dies at all, it simply cannot be based on your very clear description of the problem. These guys are pasteing their past real remembered problems with other specific 99's to your problem. Not related.
I'm sure Ray has worked on far more rifles than I have even handled, but respectfully, he misses the point entirely. Even factory ammo in 150grs is doing it. Fired cases are not. Once the OAL drops to 2.740 or below, there is no problem, even reloads with your current dies work. Concentrating on the OAL issue is where we need to be. I really think there is something Disney (Goofy) going on inside your chamber. The freebore is all out of whack.
If I'm missing something here, then Ray, do me a favor and explain it to me like I'm 4 years old (preferably with a tire iron), cause I must be even dumber than I thought I was, as if that where possible.
I almost wonder now if your gun has been rebarreled from another 99, or if the barrel has been taken off, turned, and reinstalled to fix a throating problem, and just not re-finish reamed correctly.
I propose that the trigger pull issue is due to the moving parts in the action are not perfectly lined up in the relationship they need to be in, in order for the trigger to work the way it was intended to. This mis-alignment is caused by the force being exerted rearward on the bolt from the bullet being driven into the case. This extra pressure surely exceeds the intended design of the engineer/gunsmith who designed the action. Whenever you exceed design intentions in mechanical devices, unusual problems can occur. I think this is one of those times.
If a resized empty case will chamber, and NO round over 2.740 will chamber without excessive force, then I say we put the die issue to bed and look elsewhere. If you buy new dies, you will only have new dies and still have a rifle that won't chamber rounds. I think you should either:
1. Buy a set of GO-NOGO gauges for 308 and try them in your chamber.
2. Take it to a gunsmith that can do a chamber cast, and see exactly what the dimensions are for your chamber.
3. Hunt down the guy you bought it from and offer to show him how to use a 99 as a bat.
Just my opinion, (except for the bat part!)
Don't want to ruffle any feathers, and I hope I have not.
I forgot to mention, I wouldn't continue to shoot the rifle with the hard shooting loads until this is all sorted out.
Also, I consulted my notebook at home, and my brother has a Savage BOLT gun in 30-06, that I have to seat bullets a full TENTH of an inch shorter than any of the other 30-06's that I load for, all are production guns. I know its apples and oranges, but I think I recall others with similar experience with Savage bolt guns and short freebore. It might also be characteristic of your 99? I don't do loads for his old -06 much anymore or maybe I would have thought of it sooner?
OK, Ray I'm ready now. Have you got your tire iron? I'm ready for my lessons.LOL.
BUT the problem of the trigger being hard to pull does not correlate with the working system of the 99.. I fully understand the function of the 99 action and I cannot see how, under any circumstances this heavy stress on the trigger could be taking place when the gun is loaded..It puzzles me and disturbs me if something is taking place that I can't pinpoint...I have taken a million of them apart....
I wish he would contact Savage and ask for an explanition, however these days they would probably tell him the watch-a-ma- callet is dirty...damn beancounters.
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Ray Atkinson
What do you think? Get rid of the rifle, load only lighter bullets (125 gr)or seat the heavier ones deeper.
If the gun is short throated then all one would have to do is trim the cases, but I doubt that it is....Did he take a chamber cast?? thats the only way to tell if the gun is short throated...
Your cases may have stretched and need trimming as Savages need to have the case trimmed almost every firing with max loads. or better yet get RCBS X-dies...
All the above is applicable, but none of this has a thing to do with the trigger pull. It's a seperate operation....
What type of Safty does your gun have a tang safty on top or a lever safty??
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Ray Atkinson
If you like the gun and it fits your needs, then I say have it throated and use it the way you intended it the first place. If you bought it only for investment or resale, then I wouldn't touch it, and just resell it. I will be predictable in my response and say I think the gunsmith is right and its just a throat issue (sorry Ray). But if you can get a chamber cast done that would put these old guys to bed finally, only if you post the dimensions here. LOL
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Ray Atkinson