I've made an attempt at distilling the best advice I've heard from others or have learned myself (the hard way) when it comes to building one's first custom rifle. Here are a dozen simple rules that should be broken only after careful consideration:

1. There are few bargains in custom work: Custom guns take time and skill to produce and gunmaking is not a high profit business. For this reason, be leery of anyone whose prices are significantly lower than the norm.

2. Take the advice you’re paying for: Listen to the advice of your builder. If you picked the right man for the job, he’ll have the experience of having seen what works and what doesn’t. You’re paying for his expertise, you might as well benefit from it.

3. Play to your builder’s strengths: Don’t ask a builder to work too far outside of his comfort zone. Laying a Mauser project on a builder who specializes in Remington builds is bound to lead to disappointment. Conversely, Jerry Fisher didn't make his name building bench rest rifles.

4. Multiple gunsmiths equal multiple problems: It’s hard enough for one gunmaker to stay on-time and on-budget. Minimize the number of hands that must touch your project prior to completion.

5. Go with quality parts: Saving money by using lesser quality parts is a fool’s game. If you total up the difference in price between the best quality barrel, trigger, safety, sights, etc and the cheapest substitute available, the difference might total $500 on a complete rifle. This is chump change relative to the total cost of a full-custom rifle. The barrel is the last place you should try to save a few bucks.

6. Buy a nice blank: It’s the stock that determines the curb-appeal of your new rifle. Perfect layout is cheap but invaluable; for a few hundred dollars you can get a blank with the layout to insure a lifetime of trouble-free shooting. Fancy figure with poor layout is a recipe for heartache. Spend your money first for layout and second for figure.

7. Don’t do anything crazy: Many folks want something “a little different†in their rifles but high quality is different enough. Hanging a bunch of bells and whistles on your rifle is not a smart idea in the long-run. Overdoing the widow's peaks and fleur di lis can turn an otherwise nice rifle into a gothic nightmare.

8. Try to build your “go to†gun: If 90% of your hunting is chasing whitetails then build a whitetail rifle. Build out your arsenal of specialty rifles later.

9. Don’t pick an oddball cartridge: Factory rifles chambered in oddball cartridges may command a premium but the opposite is true for custom rifles. Order up something for which you can find ammo in any well-stocked gun shop and preferably in any well-stocked small town hardware store. Not just because you might need extra ammo but because it’s the litmus test for what has proven its worth to generations of hunters.

10. Improve on something you know and love: If you really like Mausers – then build a really nice one. If you really like Model 70s – then build a nice one. If you your favorite cartridge is a 270 then build a 270…you get the idea.

11. Engraving is the last thing to spend money on: (This goes along with the advice to not do anything crazy). Engraving is expensive and time consuming; it can add a wonderful embellishment to a rifle or completely ruin a project. Be sure you get all the RIFLE you want before deciding how to have it engraved. If you ever want to sell a rifle, keep in mind that even good engraving will only bring about twenty-five cents on the dollar. Bad engraving is worse than herpes.

12. Don’t overemphasize accuracy: High dollar custom projects usually involve Mauser or Model 70 actions – neither type is popular amongst the benchrest crowd (for a reason). If all you want is accuracy, there are multitudes of cheaper ways to get it. You can and should expect very good, consistent hunting accuracy (1-1.5 MOA) but not much better. Occasionally, the stars align and you’ll get a tack driver but not always.

13. Don’t get ahead of yourself: Never, ever plan the delivery of a custom rifle around a special hunt date, nor vise versa.

Wonderful advice. I socialize with a machinist, gunsmith So I hear all the horror storys. Most common being, how come it costs that much. This young man is talented and dedicated and it hurts to see folks who don't think anyone elses time is worth anything but theirs is like gold. That and he practically makes a living putting muzzle breaks on 300 rum's. Its kind of funny to hear the excuses of why folks need them. DW

Good advice. I reiterate point #3.

quote:

Multiple gunsmiths equal multiple problems: It’s hard enough for one gunmaker to stay on-time and on-budget. Minimize the number of hands that must touch your project prior to completion.

Amen!

Although I only had Montana Rifleman, Jim Dubell, and Bill Gostomski, it is still a lot of extra work to get each on board with what your wanting.

I wanted some customizing done, but have no knowledge who is or isn't a good idea. So I basically shopped around reading the forums, to see who others thought highly of. My action and barrel are now with Mr. Farney in New Mexico. So I would add one more rule and make it a baker's dozen....be fairly sure of the outfit you choose for your work.

Rule # 13

Make sure and take a lot of photos of it when its finished, and post them here on AR so we can see what you had built!!

Although I am far from having guns of Forrest's quality. I have several from local builders that turned out well except they ended up weighing too much for a 270 class rifle. A pre 64 action with a #4 bbl, good bottom metal, nice wood stock, & the various stock parts = 10 pounds with a scope.

That is an excellent list Forrest. I hope folks will listen to a man of your experience. Every point you made is spot-on and if the adivce is taken by the custom gun client, then much heartache will be eliminate and many of the bitching posts on AR will be unecassary (that in tiself is a good thing!).

I hav eseen people break every one of those rules and often the result was regret. They are all great, but if forced to choose just one of your rules, it would be #4. No, maybe #2. Well, #1. Hell, I will stick with my first statement that they are all great.

Everybody has their own requirements but if I have a custom rifle in mid-size or lower calibers and it won't shoot at least 3/4 MOA with good loads then somewhere there is a very poor smith in my opinion. Otherwise someone is paying for a pretty piece of junk but it is their money.

My Dad told me "you get what you pay for, IF you are lucky"...

If you want a $400 build, you might get that.
If you want a $4000 build, you might get that.

I am not making a value judgement here, are there are places and people for every range of spend.. $400 to $40,000. and Each of them, I hope, get something that matches and/or beats their expectations..


Be careful what you pay for, you might get what you asked for.

The American Custom Gunmakers Guild has a publication called "Realizing Your Dreams, A Client's Guide to Building a Custom Gun." It is available through ACCG and can be purchased here: ACGG contact info . It is the only printed guide of its sort that I am aware of.

A little caveat is on order. The Guild is made up of many members with a variety of skills and specialties, with some of these specialties being quite narrow. The Guild represents all of its members, and lays out scenarios where a gun would be worked on by many sets of hands, with each person only working on their area of expertise. The book cautions that this adds risk and headache as best they can, but it is (necessarily) minimized to a large degree.

Forrest’s Rule #4 cannot be stressed too strongly. Schedule is the most common complaint involving the making of custom guns, and there is no surer way to torpedo a schedule than by using an army of specialists to make your gun. The risk involved in your project goes up exponentially with each set of hands that are required to complete the project. It can easily cause a schedule to grow from say 2 years (single maker) to 5 years (several specialists).

My opinion is that a gunmaker who can give a client a turnkey job is the best choice. There are several reasons for this, both logistical and artistic. On the logistical side, the workflow of all of the pieces of the gun is streamlined. The stockmaker will not be waiting on the metalsmith to barrel the action, the finisher is not waiting on the stockmaker, the metalsmith is not waiting on a specialist to supply a component, etc. In an industry known for pitifully long schedules, a single gunmaker presents several orders of magnitude less risk to the client. Additionally, “the buck stops with HIM,†so to speak. If there is a delivery problem, the client only has to call one person and the gunmaker cannot blame someone else for holding up the show. Two high profile instances of gunmakers blowing the schedule for multiple clients have been played out on this board in the past few months. In both cases, a single gunmaker had to answer to the angry clients. Had multiple makers been involved, it would have been less likely for most of the clients (some are still screwed as of this writing) to get some form of a satisfying result.

Another reason for choosing a single gunmaker is that you only have one person’s artistic vision being applied to your gun. Without getting too artsy here, custom gunmaking requires an artist’s eyes, hands, and soul. The more people you have working on your gun, the more artistic visions you have that will be bolted together. Sometimes it works well and the rifle is a beauty, other times it crashes and burns. Even when the end result is an artistically sound piece, I am a firm believer that you wind up with a better product with just one person doing all of the wood and metal work. You are dealing with emotions here and it is impossible for two people to feel the same thing. A gunmaker translates his emotions into walnut and steel.

Teams of gunmakers can produce stunningly beautiful pieces of functional art. Good examples of this can be seen in the Guild raffle guns that are built each year. Experts in different fields contribute to a single effort that usually results in world class pieces of work. Other duos become well known in the gunmaking circles for incredible collaborations. Darwin Hensley (wood) and Steve Heilmann (metal) come to mind as a duo that was known for joint efforts in the recent past. Today we have Martini & Hagn Gunmakers Ltd. Producing fine rifles with Ralf Martini (wood) and Martin Hagn (metal) working side by side. These are just a couple of examples of

If a client prefers to work of a major specialist - metalsmith or stockmaker - then multiple gunmakers are required. The most successful projects I have seen were when a client picked the specialist they preferred, be it wood or metal, and contracted directly with that one specialist. The specialist would then be responsible for contracting with other specialists to complete the package. For instance, you commission a rifle with your favorite stock maker. Let him give you a price for the total package. He will be responsible for lining up metal smiths, metal finishers, engravers, what have you. If there is a problem with obtaining components or delivery time of a specialist, then your gunmaker is responsible for keeping the project moving forward.

Another reason I am a believer in letting your preferred specialist choose the rest of the gunmaking ensemble is because he knows whom he works well with, as well as which other artists have a complementary styles. A world class metal smith and a world class stock maker can each do their portion of a rifle and the result can be terrible. Everyone has their own style, and they know which other artists have complementary styles. If you trust the guy enough to pay him thousands of dollars, then trust him enough to pick the right people to work with.

I do not want to hi-jack Forrest’s EXCELLENT list, so I will sign off and not elaborate further. Forrest has “been there and done that†to a degree which most of us can only dream. The man has learned some things along the way and his wisdom is something I sure learn from every time he offers advice.

Kudos Forrest!

edited to add: Steve Hughes posted between the time I started my post and the time I finally posted it. As I mentione din a couple of threads this past week, the more I am around custom guns, the more truth I see in Steve Hughes' words. His expereince is vast and his words are true.

SDH, it was my mistake in not originally including your oft-repeated advice about not planning a hunt around project delivery. You'll see I rectified that error now.

Gatogordo, I agree with you; I probably ought to change the data point a bit. The main point I am trying to make is that the first $1,500 of gunsmithing buys 95% of the accuracy. After that, a wood-stocked custom Mauser or Winchester project heads in a different direction from a BR project. Every custom rifle I own shoots less than an inch with good loads - some of them are scary accurate.

Marc, you make a number of good points and I've enjoyed your articles aimed at the gunmaker about this topic. You'll notice some of my ideas came from you.

To all, these are only "considerations" for someone to think about for their first project. In general, I believe that rules are made to be broken. However, the customer ought to put a lot of thought into it before he chooses to ignore more than two or three of these ideas when building his first full-custom rifle.

to add to an already growing list... have the $$$$ ready as your gunsmith needs it, when i started my .416 taylor last year, i put the required deposit down, then family problems entered.. gall bladder surgery got in the way, a marrige proposal... i used a very understanding gunsmith that was willing to work with me, www.burnsgunrepair.com and the slack time i created didn't cause any problems... my rifle was delivered on schedule... after looking and fondling and even getting to shoot forrest's .375 h&h on the m70 winchester, i know i'm not in his league, i still wound up with a nice custom eddystone p17...

I have said before and will say it here again. We need to put together a how to book on having custom rifles built. Something like the AR Africa book.

One makers point of view: Nothing makes me more nervous than to stock someone else's metal work! If it doesn't shoot, I'm sure as hell going to blame the metalsmith and he's sure as hell going to blame me..No sir! I want to take all the credit or all the blame.

From reputable guys this is usually a non problem,,,except.."The barrel's too heavy" I don't like the contour all that much" Can you make the bolt handle straight down instead of swept?" "The mounts were not exactly what I expected" the list goes on forever...

I usually try to modify...but I'm doing slow burn the whole time..PR, being what it is, you just take more Rolaids.

I know what my delivery will be and I don't think there's one guy out there who I've terribly disappointed...include another craftsman...all bets are off!

If I use the best of barrels, best of reamers and less than stupid workmanship, the gun almost HAS to shoot well. But, sporter barrels simply don;t have the mass of benchrest barrels and they are built on actions suitable for sporting use. A Mauser has "slow" lock time...who cares when a hippogator is about to have you for lunch...you want the damn thing to do "bang"..screw slow lock time...dependability is the last word. INCLUDING controlled feeding in any position..even upside down (Try that on a bench rest rifle)

If the sporter custom does not group three shots in an inch at 100 yds...I agree, something needs attention and the professional will give the attention necessary...I speak from experience

quote:

SDH, it was my mistake in not originally including your oft-repeated advice about not planning a hunt around project delivery.

I guess I win the "meathead of the year" award in this regard jorge

Elcab-

If you follow the link to the ACGG site, you will find the book I mentioned in my lengthy post above. That book walks you through every step of the process. I reccomend that everyone thinking ove buying their first custom buy and read the book. Well, it would also be good for someone who bought a custom but did not liek the experience and decided to get advice before having a second one built.

Forrest:

Sheeze, stop pissing in my cornflakes.

There are engraving people and not so hot on engraving people. I guess I'll assume your in the later.

Where did you come up with the 25 cents on the dollar figure. I mean how is it possible to break out the engraving from the value of the whole gun, and sure engraving can ruin a gun. So can a poor stock job or metal work. Truth be told, if your getting a custom gun built or engraved as an investment, you might be a redneck.

My .02 worth. :-)

If it is your first rodeo find a mentor. It's nice to have someone to bounce ideas off of and give you a different perspective.

Check references on who ever you choose to do your work.

I also keep a file on different gun things I like for example: scope mounts, front sights, rear sights, stock style, checkering patterns, etc. It is easier to send your smith a picture (worth a thousand words you know) vs trying to describe it.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
I wanted some customizing done, but have no knowledge who is or isn't a good idea. So I basically shopped around reading the forums, to see who others thought highly of. My action and barrel are now with Mr. Farney in New Mexico. So I would add one more rule and make it a baker's dozen....be fairly sure of the outfit you choose for your work.

Wymple.....trust me on this one.....there's several extremely talented smiths posting on this forum and any of them would be an excellent choice.....but your choice of the man that posts here as Toomany Tools was a very good choice as well! I've used him several times for specialty work such as the engraving on this rifle and bluing and have complete trust in him!

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Elcab-

If you follow the link to the ACGG site, you will find the book I mentioned in my lengthy post above. That book walks you through every step of the process. I reccomend that everyone thinking ove buying their first custom buy and read the book. Well, it would also be good for someone who bought a custom but did not liek the experience and decided to get advice before having a second one built.

I will look it up and get it. I still think some of the knowledge of this forum should be written down. Not only is there a wealth of knowledge but there is a variety of styles and budgets.

Roger, I was wondering when you would take notice of my blasphemy. Put me in the camp of people who are hot on good engraving.

Here's the point I was trying to make in an entertainingly glib fashion: a customer should make sure he's getting the most gun for his money before he decides how he might want it engraved. A second rate gun with first rate engraving is still a second rate gun.

A first-timer can be shocked at the price of quality engraving and might be tempted to scale back the quality (cost) of the base rifle in order to pay for engraving. I think the customer should first budget for the best base rifle he wants (or can afford if that's the limitation) then contract for an appropriate level of engraving.

I'm sure you had projects land on your bench and you say to yourself, "Why the heck would a guy pay me a bunch of money to engrave THIS?". You've probably also said, "Good Lord, this is beautiful metal work; I wish the customer would spring for a little more coverage".

I'm far from being anti-engraving. I just think the amount and quality of engraving should be suitable for and enhance the appeal of the base rifle.

As for the 25 cents on the dollar comment; I pulled that number mostly out of thin air. I've seen some really nice custom rifles sell for less than the replacement cost of the engraving alone. My own rule of thumb is that a used custom rifle will sell for 50-70% of the base rifle replacement cost plus 25-40% of the engraving replacement cost. It comes pretty close most of the time.

All my retirement money is "invested" in custom guns, so I'm definitely a redneck.

Forrest:

Thanks you for the clarification.


Now let me clarify my "redneck" comment. That was my own feable attempt at being glib, and a play on Foxworthy. All my friends, family, and pets are at least 95% redneck.

I think you are spot on with this post. For the last 15 years or so I've been fortunate to mostly work on high grade guns. Honestly, I don't think in terms of more coverage. Too much is as bad as too little, in my opinion. I like to have enough of a budget to be able to design negative space into the pattern. For my tastes, the empty spaces are as important as those with engraving. Sorry to say, that type of work is more expensive than simply slathering the gun with scroll.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
As for the 25 cents on the dollar comment; I pulled that number mostly out of thin air. I've seen some really nice custom rifles sell for less than the replacement cost of the engraving alone. My own rule of thumb is that a used custom rifle will sell for 50-70% of the base rifle replacement cost plus 25-40% of the engraving replacement cost. It comes pretty close most of the time.

If this statement is accurate, and I have no reason to believe that it is not accurate, then it would seem to me from a buyers point of view that Rule # 1 would be to first look and see if you can get what you want for 50 cents on the buck before going out and comissioning it done.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
. . . from a buyers point of view . . . Rule # 1 would be to first look and see if you can get what you want for 50 cents on the buck before going out and comissioning it done.

That should definitely be Rule #1 - unless the buyer has his heart set on something new and built uniquely for him. I believe that such buyers are Forrest's intended audience.

The quality of second (and third, fourth, etc.) hand stuff that is out there and being sold at bargain prices is pretty amazing, however.

If re-sale value is a big concern then rule # 1 should be: Never commision a custom rifle.

Commissioning a custom rifle is a financial losing proposition on any level from the finely engraved metal and walnut stocked rifles to the plastic an stainless steal crap that most people are having built today. Somebody made the comment once that a custom rifle holds it's value about as well as fresh fruit and as much as I love them I couldn't agree more. The ideal situation is to have something built that you'll never want to sell.


I'm not saying don't do it, all I'm saying is have the gun built that you really want and don't look back and don't second guess yourself. Know that if you ever decide to sell you're going to loose your butt. Use the above stated suggestions to help guide you along your way, but keep in mind they are only suggestions. If there is something you really want on your rifle go for it. That is what custom rifles are all about.

Last bit of advice I can give is don't try to save money. This is something that's ruined a few custom projects of mine. If you can't afford it wait until you can. If you build the custom rifle you can afford and not the one you want,,,,,Well, I won't be able to finish this sentence without a lot of disagreement from others. instead, let me give you an example. Just look at the gunbroker website sometime and type in the word "custom" in the search engine. It'll take you to a field of broken dreams.


Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Just look at the gunbroker website sometime and type in the word "custom" in the search engine. It'll take you to a field of broken dreams.


Terry

Here is a perfect example
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8600564

There's nothing "broken" about that rifle that I can see. If it wasn't in that particular caliber, I'd be all over it. Nice stock, looks kind of like a Cloward style but could be anybodies, good scope, and some kind of custom barrel....I'd like it better if you knew who made the barrel but a person sure a hell can't duplicate that gun for twice what it is currently selling for, which is less than $1500 as I write this.

PS: 5/6/08 I couldn't stand it, decided I'd bid up to $1800-1900 on the rifle. Was cleaning up the garage and ran inside to bid with a few minutes left in auction. Quick thunderstorm blew up and cut me off of my satellite connection. Gun sold for $1477.00. Someone got a helluva buy. Oh well, I didn't want a .338 anyway......sour grapes.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
There's nothing "broken" about that rifle that I can see. If it wasn't in that particular caliber, I'd be all over it. Nice stock, looks kind of like a Cloward style but could be anybodies, good scope, and some kind of custom barrel....I'd like it better if you knew who made the barrel but a person sure a hell can't duplicate that gun for twice what it is currently selling for, which is less than $1500 as I write this.

I think that was the point; someone had twice as much in it as it will sell for. Broken dream, not broken rifle. To make matters worse, its a dealer so the owner probably got 30% less than opening bid or traded for something of far lesser value.

No use in arguing over semantics, but per his above post, I interpret "broken" to mean a poor choice of smiths/parts/stock design/etc. etc. mostly due to lack of finances or lack of knowledge which leads to a poorly designed or executed "custom" rifle.

The rifle in question is probably one of two things, the owner died or is very elderly and it was disposed of (see my first post, we're all getting older every day and there are fewer gun enthusiasts being groomed behind us, so demand/prices reflect this fact) or the owner traded it in for something he preferred or needed, like cash or another firearm. Only in the case of financial distress would that meet my concept of a "broken dream".

Amen to No. 2 and 13. I am having a Ruger RSM in 375 H&H rebored and converted into a 500jeffery. It will be 2 years this August and I'm still hanging in there. The best usually have more work than they can handle. I don't want to rush the project and I am willing to wait. If I need a rifle now I'll just buy what I can find today. I think as I get older its more fun waiting a little than getting it now. I am struggling with my new PH action since I really don't need anything right now. I may just lock it up in my safe and wait until I'm moved in a direction and my bank account fills back up.

Brad