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I would like to know the common practice regarding test firing a custom barrel job before delivery to the customer. Please explain the need, if any, as to why test firing may be appropriate. Please say what you mean by test firing. Just to see if it goes bang, or for accuracy? I would also like to read your comments about customer satiafaction either way - whether the gunsmith fires it first, or the customer fires it first. I could say what my experience has been, but I don't want to preload the responses. I want to just see what's happening in other's experience. Although I think I know what works for me, there is no right or wrong answer, IMO. I just want to see what is for others. Thanks, KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | ||
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The fellow that builds my 'tactial' long range rifles is of some repute, and would probably be recognized if I mentioned him by name. He does not test fire them at all. Not even to see if they go bang. As he puts it "I was there when it went together, I know it'll shoot good". So far, I've not experience otherwise, nor have I heard reports of anything less than stellar performance. | |||
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When possible I test fire everything I rebarrel or rechamber. Not for accuracy purposes, but so I have a tangible record of the job. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I test fire every re-barrel or re-chamber, as well as all new builds. NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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IMHO, it's the gunsmith's responsibility. | |||
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In France all rebarrels and rechambers require that the barrel be pressure tested (proofed), so most conversions are sent to the proof house without being fired. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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If it's a standard cartridge available OTC or if it's an unusual one and I happen to have cartridges, I always test fire and include the fired case with the barrel. If not, I explain to the owner just exactly WHY I couldn't test fire it and request that he give me a cartridge for the testing. Just good insurance. Sure, I was there when it went together but, "the best-laid plans o' mice and men gang aft agley....." The fired case is proof of a proper job. CYA. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I always test fire a barrel fitted to an action in my shop. You can see what you have created with the new chamber. I once had a 300 H&H finish reamer that was not ground correctly at the shoulder. A case wouldn't go into the chamber, but it would headspace correctly. I returned the reamer to the manufacture. They can make mistakes just like all of us can. A long time ago I was a new man in a shop and did a few of the barrel jobs until an owner made the mistake of not test firing a new match barrel on a Camp Perry shooters prized rifle. The customer brought the rifle back after he went to the range to check it out. There was a ring cut into the shoulder of the chamber. If it had been test fired before the customer had to test fire this wouldn't be seen by all at the range. When the rifle was returned the owner handed me the rifle and said KID correct this chamber. From that day on for six yrs I had to do all of the barrel work. I VOTE TO TEST FIRE AND GIVE THE CASE TO THE CUSTOMER!! | |||
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As a general rule I would say the gunsmith is responsible for test firing the rebarrel job for serviceability. Most gunsmiths submit the fired case with the completed job. Now if the job guaranteed some type of accuracy, the gunsmith may or may not test fire for accuracy at his own peril. Such a guarantee should have an appropriate price tag as it will require a certain amount of load testing and possible tweaking to the finished product, to include cull barrels etc. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Thanks guys. I've lost count of how many custom barrel jobs I had done by various gunsmiths, so conservatively I'll say at least fifteen. I don't recall ever discussing it with the gunsmiths I've dealt with. I always prsumed that I would be the first to fire the rifle. It has always worked out well. I have one now that won't fire every time, and can't yet figure out why, but that may be a different story. So, generally speaking I don't have a problem with it either way. Just to make sure, since I've not asked before, I just called the gunsmith who has done most of my barrels and asked. I was told that they don't test fire, and don't even have ammo around the shop for that purpose. They say the volume is too great, and time too short. The last four barrels I've had them install have been non-SAAMI chambers. One is a true wildcat, one is handload only (short throat) which probably makes it technically a wildcat, one is similar to a palma chamber/throat, and another has a slightly tight chamber (to mate up with a certain case) and short throat. In all four cases, I was the first to fire the rifle. In all four, it was not a simple matter of opening a box of factory ammo, and commence. All required load development, and a calculated starting place that exists no where in a book (exactly)- except perhaps the palma (sorta) chamber. Anyway, my issue now is that working with another gunsmith, he insists on test firing, and the chamber is a wildcat. I'll not waste words describing all the issues that brings up. The reamer is mine, and we have a drawing of its specs. I could have custom ammo made, and shipped to him. But it would be just so much simpler if I did the test firing, as I always do. It's more than annoying. BTW, as a customer, I always presume a certain degree of accuracy. I've not yet had a custom barrel turn out inaccurate, and I'm not quite sure how I would resolve the issue if it happened. I would expect the gunsmith to be reasonable about it, and the barrel maker too. One thing for sure, I don't think it's a pay the money, and take my chances. It's pay the money for a product that fits the purpose. If it shoots 3" groups at best, something is wrong that needs fixing. Accuracy is one thing, but a lop sided chamber, off center, headspace, throat screwed up, stuff like that is inexcusable. IMO, there is no excusable reason that kind of screwup should get out the door, test firing or not. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I test fire and function test every one that I work on.When I don't have the ammo to do this I get it from the owner. If you have one that you don't test it could come back on you. | |||
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I met Dennis (Mike) Bellm in 1980. He owned and operated P.O. Ackley's custom rifle business here in Salt lake. He would test fire everything. He had dies for everything he chambered so he would simply make up his own loads for testing. Some jobs, depending on the action, mostly Mausers and other military types as I recall, he would scoop a load of powder from a special container he called "the blend", which was a blended concoction of every powder imaginable. He would mount the barreled action vertically in an "H" shaped, spring loaded mount with the barrel sticking down through a hole in the concrete floor, attach a cord, step well clear of the rig, behind a barrier, and touch her off. Sweet! He would fire 3 such rounds per job. Myself, I preferred receiving complete rifles so I would have a stock to hold on to while test firing. But being as it is in this business, sometimes I was sent just an action or barreled action, and the wife wasn't about to let me cut holes through her cement floor, so, when I didn't have a stock that would fit, I would pull out the heavy welding gloves and talcum powder, aim the offending beast in the general direction of the bullet trap, take a deep breath and let 'er fly. You ain't lived until you try that with a magnum. Doctor thinks the twitching will go away with time.  BTW, the gloves weren't there to protect my hands from shrapnel, they and the powder allowed the barreled action to slide under recoil without tearing flesh. Good times!_______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I think a metalsmith should put at least one round through the rifle before transferring custody. If you are going to be shooting a wildcat, then you will be reloading for it anyway. Send him a few rounds, or at least 1. Not really sure why that would be a problem. Can't use USPS, but DHL, FedX, and UPS will do it. That part about you expecting a smith and barrel maker to be reasonable has my interest piqued. And just as with your original question, there is absolutely NO wrong answer to any of this. i am just always curious about people's expectations and opinions. I really mean that-one answer is just as good as another, as long as you are hoenstly saying what you feel. Actually scratch that. I don't want to litter up your thread and just deleted soem questions I have. I will start a seperate thread with apprpriate title. Oh, one mroe thing. Just purely out of idle curiosity, what is the wildcat? Oh, and is there a problem with you making ammo? | |||
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Ditti Ditto & double Ditto!! I ALWAYS fire 3 rounds.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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That's a funny one that I'll try to remember for the right occasion.  It can be modified a little to really be funny. "Ditti Ditto Dildo", "Ditti Ditto Double Dildo", etc.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Malm- do you save every piece of brass indefinitely and somehow have it coded back to the rebarrel job? Just curious. It seems like it would be a very good thing to do and wish i had been smart enough to think of that and had done that from the begining. Skunk | |||
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I have a hard time believing anyone wouldn't test fire? Even if you were in 100% control of the process, there are anomalies that you can;t control. | |||
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If the builder does not test fire both of you have to assume it will go bang. assume: ASS/U/ME If it isn't perfect it might be a pipe bomb. I want him to know it's right. Rich | |||
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Forgot to say that I cut a bad chamber one time. Would never have known it if I had not test fired it. Had all sorts of trouble working with that barrel. It was just a bitch of a piece of steel. Have never worked with another one that felt like that. Had hard spots in it, making the chambering and threading difficult. And the bore was way out of thse center of the barrel's outer contour and was crooked to the eye. Anyway, glad I test fired it. | |||
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That opens a real can of worms. First its a wildcat so someone has to load and spec the ammo, Chance #1 Then there is a reamer that has to be made and proofed to the print. Chance #2 Then the barrel has to be chambered using a custom reamer and no case/ammo to check by. And unless you sent the print. By Guess or by golly. Chance #3 Gunsmith has to headspace this "formation" of parts. Chance #4 So, unless everybody is perfect, there are four chances for this to go badly wrong. Scares me pretty bad. The lady got 1 Million from McD and spilled her own coffee. And how many of the 4 actually had liability insurance??? I have been involved with quite a few custom setups like you are doing but recently had a sitdown with several lawyers. The outcome is not good. At some point you will have to sign a liability release from each before they touch your project. Or they might just lose their house. Not poking fun or even comenting on your project...just got a dose of reality and that may be why you are having trouble. | |||
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I think the dots have just been connected. 1. Right on. 2. Shouldn't really be a problem. It only involves math, some measuring tools, and a drawing, to reconcile. Should be easy for a gunsmith. 3. Print is available for all involved. My normal gunsmith/barrel maker does it that way all the time/every time, hundreds if not thousands of times every year. There is little gussesing about it. Cases and ammo is available. Dummy rounds are also available, which can be sent through the mail. I can make them myself, using a variety of bullets, and ensure that the case length and shoulder is in the right place. I would be using new Norma brass. 4. Headspacing is as easy as "normal". Headspace off the guages for the parent cartridge, if using the shoulder. Otherwise, headspace off the belt. Headspace guages are available, either purchase or off the shelf. There is no mystery there, only in the gunsmith's head. That is where the head-space problem is, IMO, if there is one. This insurance and liability (read lawyer) issues are real to me. And if for no other reason my intuition says RUN. I have no such issues with my regular gunsmith/barrel maker. Such nastiness is a non-issue, and easily avoided in normal good faith dealings with people. It's a clear forwarning that I want to avoid, especially when the gunsmith is the first to mention it. IMO, making stuff complicated, that is normally rather easy and not the subject of in-depth discussion, is like a set-up for failure. I have no such discussions, normally, with gunsmiths, and the "failure" ratio is practically zero. IMO, in normal dealings, failure is just about a non-issue, where good faith is present in proper doses. All this lawyer talk means to me that there is a breakdown in trust. In my experience, trust can not be adequately repaired with a liability release form. Only good faith can build trust. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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 TOMAHAWK61, Read you load and clear and every once in a while when building a wild cat these problems are taken care of nicely between knowledgeable Gun Gurus and customers even when they are 1500 miles apart. Haven't received it yet but the current rifle just put the very first 5 shots in a group you could cover with a quarter at 100 yds. 22" light weight barrel.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I actually save and catalog everyone. I also save seated dummies that I throat for. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I haven't had very good luck with many of the 'smiths I used, but that was 20 years and farther past. All the wildcats I built or was involved with were done while I watch the whole process and ALL were test fired by me or the different smiths, and I've done my own metal work the past 15 years just for that reason. In todays litigous society any 'smith that DOESN'T test fire a few rounds with SPECIFIC loads WITH a signed waiver full of the boiler plate, weasle words and liability write-offs/transfers AND keep the cases for future reference...is asking for trouble, even though once the rifle is out of his hands, so is his control over the production of ammo. I think we can look forward the the gun-grabbers going after the smiths at the liability end and driving them out of business with high insurance costs. Your definitely correct in your assesment TOMAHAWK61...I WOULDN'T even think of becoming a gunsmith today even though I thought of becoming one back in the early 60's and had visited the shops and talked to the teachers in one college in Kalifornia. Even then you could hear the distant artillery walking in. And, as always, there are smiths and there are smiths...some are masters and some are not even "Padawan learners". There are many excellent, well know smiths today I would trust to do my rifles...their excellence is all over the net, but because everything about ALL the machinery/components is subject to mis-behavior, malfunction and problems of many kinds, nothing is 100% even when they do their very best...but I think there are many that hit 99% consistently. Luck | |||
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I am guessing exactly zero gunmakers have an E&O policy that is actually worth more than the paper it is wrtten on. If there is a way for a custom gunmaker to actually insure himself for situations such as this, then i sure as hell can't find it. And please believe me when i say I had this discussion with a lot of corporate attornies and business insurance agents. Lots of questions over lots of combined hours has turned up exactly nothing that is meaningful and would not cost literally what a gunmaker can net in a year. Every single one of them told me the only protection i could get would be through how I structured my business. I am up on the different benefits and liabilites of the various busienss structures, but few gunmakers are (at least that has been my experience with knowing a lot of gunmakers) SO is all of that off topic to this thread? Well, no. Liability and ensuring a good product has been manufactured is what the test firing is all about. I too would be hessitant to use soemone else's handloads, but if there is nothing that can be done about, then there is nothing that can be done about it. And yes, i have shipped many rifles and soem ammo into Alaska and know it is not the easist thing to do, but for god's sake this is a wildcat and nothing will be easy about it when compared to a normal caliber. As a gunmaker I see this as just part of the work required to make your wildcat, and you would be responsible for getting me a few rounds. And yes, definitely dummy rounds for functioning. | |||
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I'll say something about how I feel about this - intuition. It's an analogy. Have you ever been to a movie, and in the first ten minutes or so had the thought of hopeing this gets better? Then in 15 to 20 minutes, it hasn't improved, at which time you just get up and walk out? I have. IMO, the customer relation with a gunsmith should be like going to a good movie. Ya know - fun. Over the years, with some unplesant experiences, in hindsight, I can see where just walking out of the theater is the best thing. Hanging in there too long and the inevitable results becoming all too clear, could have been avoided by intuition. I get that impression strongly in the situation I'm in, and which prompted me to make this post. Thanks for helping me in whatever way you contributed. Sincerely. Kb ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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IMO, that's a very sensable post, although I quoted only part of it. Thanks Now, I have a question for you. These few rounds that you speak of - what would you be comfortable with? Rounds loaded by me, or rounds loaded by a third party vendor, in the business of making custom ammo (handloads)? Of course the contents of the rounds would be specified either way. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I always test fire. Just to check the case and chamber more than anything. Blagg Rifles, Eastern OR | |||
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The question wasn't asked of me but let me just jump in here real fast and say that I refuse to shoot anyone's handloaded ammo. If I don't have the dies for a particular wildcat, I have my customers send me their dies, cases and bullets and assemble the rounds myself. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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That's a perfectly acceptable solution, IMO. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Malm's answer is the best i could ever imagine. You indicated that you have done a fair amount of work with this guy, so if you and he know each other well then maybe he would shoot your ammo. It is a personal thing. I have friends who I would shoot their ammo any day, any time, and others would give me the heebee geebees just thinking about them shooting their own reloads, much less me shooting it I totally agree about if you get a bad vibe. Somtimes those bad vibes can be false alarms, but if you do not think it will turn out well, then do not pursue it further. It will likely turn out badly for both of you. Either you or he can have unforseen personal problems, which would only make a dicey situation that much worse. Life throws things at us that we can do nothing about he may phsyically be unbable to work, and it is always best to have an agreeable person on the other end of the phone or email. If it starts out bad than life can really make it go south in a hurry | |||
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You misunderstood. I have practically no experience with the gunsmith who has this particular project. I'm on the verge of pulling the plug on this project, and starting over with a clean slate. I'm just looking for potential less drastic solutions. I think the gunsmith would be ok, if I went elsewhere for completion, but I would like to do it in a nice way, where it's a win-win, if possible. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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When I had my 416 taylor built the my smith had me bring some loads along when I picked it up to test fire it. It is a very good idea for them to do so I wouldn't know why one wouldn't. | |||
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In Europe, of course, it's THE LAW. Any gun fitted with a new barrel MUST be sent to Proof Test before the gun is passed back to the customer. The reason isn't just for the customer's protection but for the gunsmith's too. For if it blows up afterwards in the customer's use the gunsmith can stand behind that Proof Test. | |||
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On rebarrel, rechamber, muzzle brake, drill and tap of receiver or barrel I always test fire with factory ammo if available. I engrave on the fired cases customer and firearm information and file all information permantly. For any type of repair, test fire 3 rounds. For reblue, parkerize, etc. always test fire for function BEFORE disassembly and refinishing. Ask me how I learned this lesson. I had a customer bring in a new .300 Weatherby. He had another shop to fit a muzzle brake.He took it to the range, on the first shot the recoil was so severe the scope cut his eye and the muzzle brake flew off for parts unknown. Close inspection revealed the other shop had threaded the barrel .009 off center from the bore. The owner of the Weatherby confronted the other shop and they "assured" him they had test fired it. Lucky for them this fellow was not the type to sue. The threads were crude and of very poor fit to what was left of the brake. Beware fellows, there are some real quacks out there. Craftsman | |||
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I'm curious as to why you would see a need to test fire a rifle after drilling and tapping the receiver or barrel. What would be your concern there? _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Westpac For several reasons. For example lets say I drilled and tapped a couple of holes to mount a front sight. The customer takes the rifle out and accidently gets an obstruction in the bore near the sight location. It could be a piece of a weed or mud or any number of things. He fires it and splits the barrel open at that location. In court I could testify and prove that the barrel was tested and proved sound after working on it. What if you drilled and tapped the receiver and the customer was a handloader and mixed his Hogdon 870 up with H-322 and blew the rifle up splitting the receiver right through the holes you just drilled? I know drilling a hole to the proper depth would not cause any failures. But try convicing F. Lee Bailey and a bunch of liberals on a jury. I think if I had not test fired the gun and documented it, I would be ripped to shreds by any attorney with the least bit of greed. Why do gun manufacturers test their firearmas? CYA Craftsman | |||
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 BINGO rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I think it is inexcusable and frankly negligent if a gunsmith does not. It is imperative to ensure the job performed actually functions appropriately: ie rifle/action feeds and fires accurately. The top smiths do that. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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