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How strong is the siamese mauser action?
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted
Anybody know what the pressure rating is? If you heat treat them does the pressure rating go up?


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10134 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Like most of the older Mausers, heat treating them makes them suitable for use with modern powders. It is basically a 98 mauser and thus has all the benefits the 98 affords.




Aut vincere aut mori
 
Posts: 4862 | Location: Lakewood, CO | Registered: 07 February 2002Reply With Quote
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So if its heat treated it can be loaded to say 45k psi


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10134 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Yup.

Then you could take your .45-70 to Africa. Eeker




Aut vincere aut mori
 
Posts: 4862 | Location: Lakewood, CO | Registered: 07 February 2002Reply With Quote
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I owned and shot one quite a bit. The limiting factor in a 45-70 is the thin brass at the junction of the solid head. I Rockwell tested my Siamese but I don't not remember the hardness. However it was hard enough I felt it would be safe for me. The bolt was quite tough when opening the bolt face. The receiver was about like a VZ-24. It had a noticeable tough skin. By comparison a M1909 Argentine receiver is about like a common nail. Not much toughness in the skin.
The hottest load I ever shot was 55 grains of 3031 with a Winchester 510 grain soft point.
The primer indicated the load was not high pressure in comparison to a modern cartridge. However the brass had a sharp ridge at the junction of the solid head. The Winchester and other similar 500 grain bullets are two diameter bullets. The are groove diameter behind the cannelure. Ahead of the cannelure they are .450 or less. The resulting loaded round can be loaded long will increased powder capacity.
Such loads are NEVER EVER to be used in a lesser action. I suspect it destroy a Trap Door or a Ballard. Don't try them in a lever gun of any sort.
 
Posts: 9207 | Registered: 22 November 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Man you anti 45-70 guys are pretty paranoid...

Who said anyhting about a 45-70. If you will notice z1r's comment is a joke...


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10134 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Mike,
In general, its as strong as a contemporary mauser 98 ...


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about
the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 39598 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of z1r
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Heat treat? Of course. Then lap out the warpage, work on the feed rails, and maybe you can get it to feed properly most of the time (51% qualifies as most of the time) You can think about that while being charged by a cape buff - you know statistically - whether this time you actually have a single shot or whether the second one will feed. You always have a 49% chance.

My advice is take your chance in Los Vagus, rather than Africa. Roll Eyes

Oh yes, maybe you should save youself some grief by checking if it has already suffered setback, while in its military usage. Lot's of them did as I understand, as did the beloved 1909 Argentine.


Wow, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

No warpage when I get em done. Setback, of course it's inspected for and corrected for before being sent out as are the Argies, and, well all of em.

In case you hadn't clued in, the .45-70 in Africa part, it's a joke. Big Grin

I don't think you need to tell Mike what's what when it comes to which gun is appropriate there.




Aut vincere aut mori
 
Posts: 4862 | Location: Lakewood, CO | Registered: 07 February 2002Reply With Quote
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Mike I am in the process of building a 375/348 Ackley Imp or 375 Alaskan as some may call it. The Siamese action I am using was made in Japan and has the 3 small circles stamped on the left side of the receiver. The surface of the locking lugs and the top of the receiver ring are quite hard. When I drilled and tapped my action a new HSS drill would not crack the harded surface of the receiver ring. I had to use a carbide drill to start. The centre of the receiver ring was considerably softer. So prety much like most mausers just like someone has pointed out. Bolt face was very hard as well when I opened it up for the 348 case . I understand the Japanese made Siamese mausers are all quite good. What are you building?
 
Posts: 2442 | Location: manitoba canada | Registered: 01 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Kabluewy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by z1r:
quote:
Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Heat treat? Of course. Blah Blah Blah, etc. Big Grin


Wow, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

No warpage when I get em done. Setback, of course it's inspected for and corrected for before being sent out as are the Argies, and, well all of em.

In case you hadn't clued in, the .45-70 in Africa part, it's a joke. Big Grin

I don't think you need to tell Mike what's what when it comes to which gun is appropriate there.


Sorry about that. Yes, I'm clued in that the Africa part was a joke. Didn't mean to insult Mike either. Sometimes I get wound up, especially when I've been arguing with my wife's attorney about divorce. At least I didn't take it out with the folks at the office. Big Grin

As you can guess, I'm not a fan of the Siamise or the 1909 arge. Lost too much time and money on both - been there done that, etc.

KB


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Posts: 12818 | Registered: 16 February 2006Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
So if its heat treated it can be loaded to say 45k psi[QUOTE]

at 45kpsi max pressure, I would not bother with heat treat.

Some interesting reading on the Siam m98:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/siammauser/index.asp
 
Posts: 2134 | Registered: 12 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Snowman,

Don't know what I am gonna build...well I ain't buildin nuffin...I just spendid money.


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10134 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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My Siamese is a 30/40 Mannlicher stocked and feeds as good as it looks and it's second to none in the looks department. Consistent 1" groups.


SCI Life Member
NRA Patron Life Member
DRSS
 
Posts: 2786 | Location: Green Valley,Az | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I built mine in 45-70 in the mid '70s. It's seen a lot of heavy loads since. I actually refer to it as a 450-400-70. My top end load (not max BTW) pushes the 400 gr Barnes SP at 2300 fps. That's about all I can take out of the 9.5 lb rifle (loaded with scope). I have it throated for the Barnes seatedto mag length. A Hardcast Lee 510 gr GC cast bullet is pushed at 2050 fps. Puts it right up into .458 Win area. These loads exhibit only moderate pressure signs as the expansion ratio is about as large as it can be. All modern solid head cases are as well suported in the web area as with any other cartridge. Over the years I've not lost a single case to head seperation and am still using the original 60 R-P cases I got back when I built the rifle. I do NS the cases though. The Siamese action is a very good and wellmade action.

Larry Gibson
 
Posts: 1489 | Location: University Place, WA | Registered: 18 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Zimbabwe,

That is one cool looking rifle. But is it not blasepmy to have it sitting next to elephant tusks?

What kind of loads and velocities do you shoot out of it?


Larry,

You got pics of your rifle. Are those velocities chronographed or estimates...not doubting you just curious those are some serious loads.

Do you ever run a quick load on pressures....just curious.

Zimabawe,

That rifle up for sale???


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10134 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of z1r
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Kabluewy:

Sorry about that. .... I've been arguing with my wife's attorney about divorce. At least I didn't take it out with the folks at the office. Big Grin

KB


That sux, I'd be a little pissed too. Best of luck with that whole ordeal.

I hear what you're saying about the receivers, that's why I insist on heat treating them first. Very inexpensive insurance. A drop in the bucket really when you consider the cost of a complete build. But, if you don't want to have to mess with it, then many of the later receivers are generally a little better able to withsatnd the rigors of modern powders.

Anyway, good luck with them leeches!




Aut vincere aut mori
 
Posts: 4862 | Location: Lakewood, CO | Registered: 07 February 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of zimbabwe
posted Hide Post
The last I loaded was some 165gr Swift Sirocco's with 45grs of IMR4350. The Swift's were recommended to me and they were on sale so I tried them. They shoot good in this rifle. I have tried A-Frames and did not like them at all in Africa in my 06. Hadn't really considered selling it have no idea what it's worth and I really do like it.


SCI Life Member
NRA Patron Life Member
DRSS
 
Posts: 2786 | Location: Green Valley,Az | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted Hide Post
Zim,

I thought it was 45-70?...LoL


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10134 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
Zim,

Love that rifle too bad there wasn't a Homer Simpson drooling emoticon available to properly pay my respects to that rifle. Very Very Cool

PM Sent
 
Posts: 2242 | Registered: 09 March 2006Reply With Quote
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