Stocks are in a different class of ability than machine operations. The
machine will cut exactly as you want by dialing in the dimensions a few
thousands at a time. Anyone with normal ability can learn this process. It
takes a person with artistic abilities to make stocks and I mean ones made
without a duplicator.
The use of chisels to make a cut will need hand and eye coordination.
This is my own sense of what is going on by observing in classes when I taught
stock making at TSJC. Only about 5% of the people had the ability to become
pro stock makers. I had a student that said he was a cabinet maker for 20 yrs
and mentioned he could see a square wall and cabinet fit from 20 ft away.
He could not see the curves of stocks. Inletting and fitting metal to wood
requires lots of practice in learning which way the grain runs in the area
where you are working. In straight grain areas you can use a large chisel, but
in cross grained areas you need to use smaller chisels to cut smoothly. In
straight areas you could use a ½ inch gauge, but in cross grain you would need
to use a ¼ inch chisel or smaller. I use scrapers to cut very small amounts
when necessary in the final fit. A chisel needs to be very thin and sharp as a
razor blade to cut well.
I see so many guys using the same style classic stocks cut on the same
duplicator. I have made all styles from ultra modern , Weatherby western,
muzzleloader, and classic. Most of the stock makers would not try to make an
ultra modern like Guyman made in the ’50. If a person could show me a
picture of what he wanted I would make it for him without any drawings.

Les Brooks, retired gunsmith, Metal and Stockmaking

Most of you know that I have a DVD of several gunsmith projects listed. I am coming to the end of my time making these available to the gunsmith beginners. The pro's do not need the information, but these files were made for the beginner looking on how some of us worked in the shop. I am reducing the cost for the DVD so anyone can afford the info.

Send me a PM if anyone would like these files. One more fall like I had three weeks ago and I may be in the happy hunting grounds of old gunsmiths. Ha Ha

Gunsmith Projects by Les Brooks 2015
Retired after 40 yrs full time gunsmithing, Class of 1963 TSJC
SECTION
204 RUGER MINI MAUSER 1
CHECKERING 2
CUSTOM GUNS 3
ENGRAVE 2011 4
GUNSMITH TOOLS 5
GUNSMITH SCHOOL 6
NEW MACHINE TSJC 1994 7
OLD MACHINE PHOTO’S 8
RELOADER TOOL 2011 9
SHORT VIDEO’S 10
STOCK DUPLICATOR 11
STOCKMAKING HAND TOOLS 12
PROJECTS WILL HAVE PDF FILES, PICTURES, AND SOME VIDEO ‘S

This is a list of projects, but not in the order on the DVD. 2.25 gs. info

I believe the same could be said of checkering a stock. I've seen some checkering that while technically pretty good, was just butt ugly because the craftsman had no eye for it. Mid Tompkins said the same about shooting offhand, some people just are not going to shoot good offhand no matter how much they practice. Some might argue I fall into that category.

John

quote:

Originally posted by gasgunner:
I believe the same could be said of checkering a stock. I've seen some checkering that while technically pretty good, was just butt ugly because the craftsman had no eye for it. Mid Tompkins said the same about shooting offhand, some people just are not going to shoot good offhand no matter how much they practice. Some might argue I fall into that category.

John

it's arguable that i am both of these things!

It's inarguable that I fall into both categories.

It would never be possible for me to build a stock, I possess neither the eye or the patience to do inletting or shaping of the stock. It’s difficult for me to understand how it’s even possible another human being that kind of talent and ability. Maybe I could fabricate one completely from bedding compound, it likely would be better than any attempt I could make with a rasp and chisel.

PM sent. When it comes to making a stock, I need all the help I can get.

I cut my pattern stocks by hand to a finished product more of less, then send the pattern to a stylist leaving a bit of wood..I tend to go with European or English or a combo of both..I can and did for a long time cut my stocks by hand..I think the secret is one mush know what a stock looks like and not be afraid to remove wood. the eye ball works as well as anything else..I had a lot of help from some of the best, it has been a hobby for me, not a business and by choice.

Hello Ray,

I talked with you several yrs ago about hunting the Roberts ranch out of Marathon.
I made my own Duplicator 40 yrs ago and made my patterns as needed for the shop. I never cut blanks for anyone else, but used it to save time. It is a simple machine and works as well as a North Star duplicator. If you would like a good projects just make my designed machine.

This Sako stock had the type of grain that made it a must to have a duplicator cut the blank. This took one hour on the duplicator to cut down and I usually cut over size about .050 on the outside and .035 undersize on the inside then inletting by hand tools.

Superb piece of walnut Les. Wow! Nice machine as well. Can you spare a photo of the other side? Thanks.
CB

This is one of the pictures I could find fast. Maybe some better ones tomorrow.

Beautiful shape, too. I hate those modern stocks where the underside of the butt doesn't align with the trigger guard.

Sambar, a great example of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion, the toe line should intersect just forward of the bolt root. Drop the line to the top of the trigger guard or worse yet, the bottom, you have an Al Biesen. Some like this look. I don’t.

I try to make stocks to the request of the customer. I have made so many different styles and if a person can find a picture of his ideas I will try to make it for his money. I started making stocks in the 1957 by reading articles in the
American Rifle mag. I took pictures from that time forward and after the PC's came along, I thought I would pass along some of my thoughts. You can't please everyone. The craftsmanship is what I look for in judging a stock.

Very nice wood choice Les. Looks like a two-sider. Many stocks only have one fancy side. Thanks. CB

quote:

Originally posted by Lester Brooks:
This is one of the pictures I could find fast. Maybe some better ones tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Sambar, a great example of beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion, the toe line should intersect just forward of the bolt root. Drop the line to the top of the trigger guard or worse yet, the bottom, you have an Al Biesen. Some like this look. I don’t.

We may be at crossed purposes, Schrodinger. I like the 'toe line' as seen in Les's photo but dislike ones that point towards the bottom of the trigger-guard bow or fore-end tip. Often seen on target rifles, the latter types suit their tight pistol hands but not my aesthetics.

So Lester how did it go at the Roberts ranch, I know they have a good population of deer, but how did it go with you..

I have one more stock to build and its for myself this time, just bought the blank from Alex Howe, a friend of Alan Vincent, Saeeds God son as I recall..stock no. 1 in the classified section..bought it two days ago.

The hunt on Roberts Ranch was like a dream hunt. I thougt John Wayne would come riding up to the Ranch house anytime. My friend Jack Roberts was living at Trinidad and his 4400 acres was too dry for any live stock, but Jack and I went after Prairie Dogs several times a week. I was a student in 1962 and we became good friends. I finished school and moved away. Jack sold his ranch and moved back to Texas. I lost his connection, but I was back in Ft Worth at Knights Shop. I knew a game warden in Brownwood that knew the Roberts family, so I called him and he told me Jack had bought a ranch in Comanche. After we reconnected he asked me to go hunting on the old family ranch with him in 1965. We had a great hunt and the next yr he acknowledged me to get 8 hunters for a paid hunt
as the first to be allowed to go there. I picked several good customers and one was a Dr that owned his on twin engine aircraft. We flew the 500 hundred miles in about 2 hrs. and another Dr. was a fighter pilot so he went as the co-pilot. A very interesting hunt, now after 4 days we had an ice storm coming in and we couldn't fly out, so a DR friend let us have the Mustang 65 and I drive these 2 hunters back overnight as they had Operations to make. Jack passed away at 59 yrs and that ended my hunting out of Marathon.

A little long,but one of my best times on a hunt.

Great story Les!

Is there a decent understandable source on the net describing aspects and technical details of stock design.
Rifle and shotgun if possible.

Lot to ask for I know, but here's hoping!

I believe that it is a judgement of an experienced craftsman who might have a tri stock to use. I like to see the person who would like to have a custom designed stock. Here are some of the things I watch for: wearing glasses, how tall and arm length, neck length, normal weight, wide shoulders, rifle stock style, is this for off hand standing or from a rest. A shotgun is different as it is shot standing. I have made stocks for trap shooters with length and twist to fit the person.

I had an experienced stockmaker Joe Knight help me when I started back in 1965 as I was the first gunsmith hired to go to work for Knights
Gun Store. This store started in 1935 with Al Knight Sr and then after WW 2 Al Knight Jr, and Joe Knight came in 1945. Joe wanted to retire and I was hired to make stocks. I will never forget the first day at work after a couple of days getting my bench organized. Joe Knight brought a custom stock to me and said HERE KID CHECKER THIS STOCK WITH A POINT pattern. One day later I took it back to him and this is what he said. THIS KID IS AFTER MY JOB AS HE WAS PLEASED. This is a true story!!

To answer your question I don't believe there are any dimensions available. If you find a stock that fits you the way you shoot I would measure it.

IF you can find a copy of Alvin Lindens' book(s) with the full sized patterns you'll have a start. I think there used to be a couple of Jerry Fisher patterns available, too. Alter to fit from there. I am glad I had an instructor. I don't know if I'd have completed the first one without him.

There are several books that have the average size for a stock. I compare stocks like SHOE FITTING. On factory size length for everyone. Say a person in 5 ft 2 in tall and he has no choice but to get a size 10 1/2 shoe. Now there is a 6 ft 5 in person and he has to take the same 10 1/2 size. It just will not fit. The short person size shoe is too long and the tall person it is too short. Fitting gun stock is similar. In my written instructions on the DVD I give what is considered a standard fitting stock of 13 1/2 in length, but things to remember is it a scoped rifle or an open sight rifle. The drop at the butt will need a little adjustment to fit properly.

In working at Ewell Cross Gun Shop we had 3 fulltime gunsmiths most of the time from 3 different Gunsmith Schools. None is these guys were ready to do stocks and checkering. I offered to help them finish their training and none would take the free offer in their free time. I could checker a stock in about 8 to 10 hrs and answer the phone calls. The owner was watching a guy trying to check a stock and after 3 or 4 days he told him that he can't afford to pay for him to learn this work. There is a lot of good information in this AR Forum on stockmakers.

I don't claim to be a perfect stockmaker, but have tried to help anyone wanting to learn. I offer the DVD to anyone in the US and it has lots of helpful information. The cost of making a DVD has gone up. I figure the cost at $10 to $12 each and this doesn't allow anything for the equipment like camera's, PC, Printers, and my time. I can't work now, so I try to pass along my ways of working. I can still type as I was taught 70 yrs ago in school.

Thanks for reading , Les

The challenge will be getting finished with the first one. After that, for me anyway, I have been able to alter as I see fit or need to. The first one taught me a lot!