The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Weld or bend a bplt handle ?sGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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The pictures of rusty martins weld on bolt handle has me wondering. are there any clear cut advantages to building or buying then welding a bolt handle or having the factory handle bent. I have a VZ-24 I will be starting on in the next few months I have a 03 springfield my smith did by bending and as far as I am concerned it looks great ! That job costs about 150.00, is it cheaper to cut and weld ? thanks ...tj3006 freedom1st | ||
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The objective is to provide clearance for a scope. In that light both work well. However when it comes to appearance absolutely no bend job looks as nice as a new bolt welded on. This one by Jim Kobe is a very good looking bolt and it cost me less than 1/2 of what your bent handle cost you.  /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Forged handles almost always end up too short. Plus, you are limited to the knob that they came with. Lastly, if the peson doing the forging doesn't excercise enough care they can ruin the bolt. My vote is for welded handles.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Vapo, is it in the genes??? Society of Intolerant Old Men. Rifle Slut Division. | |||
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Top is a bolt featuring a bolt handle forged (bent) by Davis May (yamyor38@pld.com) and the bottom is a VZ24 bolt with a handle welded on by J Kobe. The difference in lenth is about 1/8". May charged me $66 to forge TWO bolts, so I imagine one bolt would be about $35. Kobe charges around $90 to weld on a new handle. I believe the forged bolt handle is stronger. The bolt handle by Kobe was not welded on bottom side (see photo 2). S40   Youth and vitality are wasted on the young. | |||
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Kuhnhausen and Walsh say to weld the bolts, but I think they are worried about overheating the bolts. I have over come the heat problem in forging, but lately I have become convinced from Z1R's posts, here and elsewhere, that lower profile and longer bolt handles make Welding the better idea. This does require notching the receiver, but I am working on making that repeatable and not causing a torque on firing pin release. I now have ~25 bent bolts. The shortness causes the shooters fingers to run into the scope. I think that some will get an extension welded on to make them longer. I have built a fixture for turning bolt handles already on the bolt body. Here is a bolt cleaned up after a welded to the body, shown next to one not cleaned up yet: | |||
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I'm curious if not welding the underside of the handle was an oversight, or, SOP. I prefer to weld on new handles as opposed to forging the existing handle. When I weld them on, I always weld the bottom and then machine it to blend with the body. If nothing else, it makes it look complete.  | |||
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IMHO I see the choice as a personal one, either can ruin the bolt if done improperly! Likewise, either can be beautiful. Welding certianly gives more choices but I have shaped original bolt knobs to. If you must pay someone else to do this work, price could be THE deciding issue - again, IMHO you're paying too much for both - but that to is your decission and faith in the practitioner is worth a little cabbage. An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
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How much time do you figure it should take from start to finish to do each? | |||
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Whats with the no weld showing on the bottom side of that bolt. That doesnt look good. Wonder how Kobe welds em on? Vapos looks good... | |||
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Mine are done by Jim as well.....they're welded all around and I suspect an oversight there..... In the local Minneapolis area when one of Jim's rifles sits in a used gun rack for sale it's described as a Kobe...not a Mauser or a Winchester.....but a Kobe...he's that well known there and his work is established as excellent. That photo is not Jim's typical work. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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How do you get intouch with Jim?Does he post here.Have a bolt that needs a modification. | |||
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send an email jkob60@msn.com Jim posts here but he don't like PMs...he's an email type of guy....WHY???...beats me!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Vapo, yea, I here Jim does excelent work , Guess thats why I wondered about the bottom of that one. | |||
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I recon that is kinda in the eyes of the beholder.  Here are a couple that were forged from the original military bolt handle. I like them as well as the Talleys I've had welded on.    I might add that the knobs are the ones that came on the bolt handles but they don't look the same anymore. They are also plenty long. ****************************** "We do not exaggerate when we state positively that the remodelled Springfield is the best and most suitable "all 'round" rifle".......Seymour Griffin, GRIFFIN & HOWE, Inc. | |||
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I thank all of you for the posts ! Some of the pictures are great and I so love a nice rifle. I would love to post a picture of the bolt handle on my custom springfield .257 R. But I have had little sucsess posting pics here. I would be happy to E-mail one to somebody who wants to post it for me. The 150.00 price tag was one Quoted on another springfield. I asumed perhaps incorectly that a VZ-24 would cost the same, . Any way PM me with an Email adress and I will send a pic of my bolt...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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Thanks Vapodog  | |||
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In all fairness this angle doesn't show a lot of detail. We need a closeup shot from the aft end of the bolt with the bolt shroud removed to really tell what's going on.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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Mybe the guy who said I welded on that bolt will contact me and refresh my memory. I have doubts on whether I did that one. I will accept a PM on this even though I abhor them. Jim  Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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"How much time do you figure it should take from start to finish to do each? To forge a bolt handle "start to finish" shouldn't take more than an hour. This is assuming one has the required equipment - O/A torch, bending blocks, heat sink & paste, cleaning, grinding and polishing equipment, etc. and is a simple bend & contour job. As for welding, there is the same correct equipment issue as well as whether the handle is off the shelf or shop made/customized. The latter work can take considerable time to do correctly. Perhaps an hour or less to weld an off-the-shelf model including set-up and clean-up. I wouldn't pay (or ask to be paid) 150/hour for such a common operation. Before starting any custom gun project (ANY gun project) one should ask himself exactly what he wants AND exactly what he is willing to settle for.  An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
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Back when I believed in forging I forged 25 one day with two of us working. 1) Put welding paste up the bolt body. 2) Screw brass heat sink with buttressing threads into bolt body. 3) Cut a notch in the bolt handle 4) Place the bolt in bending blocks. 5) Place bending blocks in 100 pound mill vise in center of shop. 6) Two men put on welding goggles and gloves, 7) One man heats the bolt handle stem with Oxyacetylene torch. 8) The other man bends the bolt with sledge hammer and bolt forging punch 9) The bolt body is lowered into water up close to the bolt handle, but not quite, and wait for cooling 10) Unscrew heat sink and clean out welding paste and water. 11) repeat I could do a good job at 15 minutes each, but I tried to get one done in 5 minutes and I hit down on the stem so hard with the hammer that later the shroud did not screw into the bolt body. I had to lapp out the eccentric misfit of the buttressing threads where the bolt body was bent. Then there is time for shaping the forged bolt to make it look nicer. My brother uses his belly to steady a die grinder as he carves out sweeps. He can spend allot of time on this. I am just counting 15 minutes to forge to be functional. | |||
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How about the root of the bolt handle where it contacts the extraction cam after the welding or forging process? Will it stay hard enough not to marr through use. Also what about the cocking cam, does it also stay hard enough. | |||
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Do what I do: Heat red hot, dip in viagra, heat red hot again and immediately quench. It will stay hard forever. Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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35 bucks for an hour is too much? sure it is... when gas was 59¢ and you got change from a $5 when you went to mcdonalds. today, that's seriously underpaid... considering taxes are 50% of that ... which works out to a hair over 34,000 a year.. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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You are not supposed to let it go further than straw color. | |||
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After you make your notch and beat the handles down, don't you go back and weld up the underside? How long does it take you to clean up and shape each one? Just curious... | |||
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jeffeosso Not to be picky but I agree $35/hour is about right, even a bit more wouldn't be outragous. However the original post said $150 for a forge job. THAT is what I said was to much. Maybe I missed something - if so my apologies are offered but anyone paying $150 for such a simple job is being ripped, even if they've brought John Browning back from the dead to do it! An old man sleeps with his conscience, a young man sleeps with his dreams. | |||
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oupa, I think perhaps you don't realize how much effort goes into a NICE looking bolt. I think Malm alluded to it and Tnekkcc will also agree that forging can be done relatively quickly, however the cleanup and shaping can require much more effort. I think $150 for a forge job might be a bit much but, did that also include notching the receiever? Besides, ultimately as you said, "faith in the practitioner is worth a little cabbage". And if he is happy with the product what does it matter what he paid? Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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$150.00 being fair depends on the quality of the work. The finished product. If the end result looks as though it could have been done at Mauser Oberndorf it IS worth 150.00! If my work does not meet MY expectations then I charge accordingly. Doing a bolt handle the right way ( the Oberndorf way ) IS demanding to say the least. Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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For Jim Kobe. Yes Jim you did weld on the bolt handle. This is a VZ24 action in which you did the bolt handle, installed a PME safety, machined the charging hump, ground the loading ramp to accept a commercial floor plate, and rebarreled to 6.5x55 Mauser. The work was done in June/July of 2004 My original post was not meant to critise your work, I was just pointing out why I thought a forged bolt handle was stronger than a welded on one. I'm not picky about how a rifle looks as long as it is safe and shoots good. This particular rifle is capable of 1/2" groups, so it is one of my favorites. You will note that I did not question the quality of weld, and would have let the issue dissappear if you had not questioned whether it was your work or not. S40 Youth and vitality are wasted on the young. | |||
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Marc--- I also like this handle, the pear shape and the angles. Nice job. | |||
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Marc did you do these bolts? | |||
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yes. one is on a .416 and the unfinished one is for a .270 G33/40 that is a personal project. Have been working on it for about 3 years, so I figure I am nearing the half-way point for one of my personal projects!!! | |||
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Great looking job! I like the teardrop shape to the bolt knob. I have a bolt that needs to be bent or another handle welded on it. Did you buy the bolt handle and weld it on? | |||
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thanks for the kind words. They are Talley bolt knobs that I TIG'ed on the bolts. if you want, drop me an email at mstokeld@carolina.rr.com I'm fixing to hit the sack, but will check my mail tomorrow evening. | |||
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Do you get them direct, or from Brownells? | |||
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Well done on that bolt Marc. Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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South 40: SOrry but I did not recognize the "handle". I don't doubt I did the handle but how about telling me who you really are? LOL Idared: The handles in your pictures of "forged" bolt handles appear to be a lot longer than any others I have seen. Has a length of stock been added to give the extra length>? Jim Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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