Was at the public range yesterday, noticed a shooter with a custom rifle that was rebarreled to 22-250. I asked if he was down-loading the ammo for this rifle, he replied no, he was shooting factory ammo. I made the remark that the action of the rifle was a model 1891 mauser and was only rated to 40,000 psi, and that the 22-250 would greatly exceed that pressure level (60,000psi.) He was unconserned as the "Gunsmith" had graduated from some Gunsmith school. I told him being a graduate from a school did not make his rifle any safer, and I would never have done the conversion. I left the range with the idea of contacting the Gunsmith he said did the work. What do say to these folks that won't listen to reason? bill439

It's not a conversion I would undertake nor recommend.

quote:

I left the range with the idea of contacting the Gunsmith he said did the work. What do say to these folks that won't listen to reason? bill439

I doubt I would have gotten that far into the conversation. His smith is an expert. You are a nobody to him. Talk to the smith you will probably hear the same thing. If people want something they will justify it. You could show him 50 articles saying no. He has one that says maybe he would be happy. I just wouldn't set next to him.

I gave up trying to protect people from themselves and their "experts".

Does any of you experts actualy performed any tests on the actual reciever, or seen any relevant testresults on those recievers.

Because i earlier have rebuild more than 15.000 Swedis m96, who also have that rather dubius renome, We actualy performed a line of tests, including actions installed with 7mm rem mag, who was send to oficial prooftesting, they all passed, We also installed an 460 wea barrel without the excessive freebore, and fiered it several round showing clear signs of high preasure (flat and loos primers , casehead expandet .08"), The action showed no signs of damage.
I ame not trying to make anyone use this calibers on that type of actions. Just trying to get som real facts on the strength of those rifles, not just antsient hersay

Jørgen,

Suitability of an action to a cartridge should not be decided upon on the basis of strength alone. Is the action strong enough, sure. Does it handle a case rupture well? No. Thus, I would not build a rifle using that action for a high pressure round. Instead I'd confine it's use to rounds that generate pressures no higher than 45-46K Cup. I use the same guidelines for the Superb Swedish 96s also.

The 96 in 9.3x57 is my cup of tea but the same action in .270 is not.

For cartridges exceeding 46K cup I turn to the better suited 98.

I would have found a seat far from him...

but, then again, I had a 91 in 308... and shot the heck out of it. Before I knew better!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Jørgen,

Suitability of an action to a cartridge should not be decided upon on the basis of strength alone. Is the action strong enough, sure. Does it handle a case rupture well? No. Thus, I would not build a rifle using that action for a high pressure round. Instead I'd confine it's use to rounds that generate pressures no higher than 45-46K Cup. I use the same guidelines for the Superb Swedish 96s also.

The 96 in 9.3x57 is my cup of tea but the same action in .270 is not.

For cartridges exceeding 46K cup I turn to the better suited 98.

I bacicaly agre on what you say, but i can guaranty you that there is brand new actions with less or the same safety acording to caserupture, but on the old mausers that is mainly because of the missing casehead support. from the CRF
On some new actions you have no gasleakholes fron the bolthead atall, causing high risk that the pinn flyes out in your face if the primer puncture. Other has no practical blocking for gasses cumming backwards along the raceway in case of caseheadrupture

The 91 ,and other pre-98 Mausers, will hold pressures that blow the primers. As to the gas handling issue; The 03 Springfield, and pre 68 Mod 70's hasd the same danger with failed case heads. When have you seen a failed case head?.
The action may develop headspace, but they won't
"Blow up".
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


but, then again, I had a 91 in 308... and shot the heck out of it. Before I knew better!

jeffe

And what convinced you that it was a bad idea?
Facts or established opinions?

The limit of 45-46K-cup was teached at Colorado School of Trades, and I have believed it - until I met Jørgen at our Scandinavian forum.
Testing and facts are hard to beat.

About the case-rupture, in theory yes, but is this a problem? Do we know about injuried people , as a result of a ruptured case in a M96/91? And how critical are we to many of the new actions on the market? Have they really been tested to see what happens when a case ruptures?

Norma factory 6.5x55 has caused setback in many a M96

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Norma factory 6.5x55 has caused setback in many a M96

In quite a few M98's too!

Theese actions are more than a hundred years old, some are manufactured during wartime, and we do not know their history. They might have been abused in ways we do not believe.
In Jørgens testing, I remember the majority of the 96's had better steel than the majority of th 98's.

Bent,
I kinda meant that as a joke... I shot one for a couple years, and had a ball with it.. an EXCELLENT bottle buster, light, accurate, and fed well... then i "learned me something".. .and decided (with the then limited knowledge) that it was a bad idea... a friend of mine, who tried to convince me it was fine, took it off my hands... and it's still banging around on his ATV as a beater gun... shooting milsurp and taking hogs, probably every weekend!
jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by MajorCaliber:
Norma factory 6.5x55 has caused setback in many a M96

Can you determin if it is setback, or simply wear?

If it is setback, because of high preasute, it is typical, that they gets dificult or imposible to open, because of the split left upper lug.

Many of those rifles has ben rebarreled more than 10 times, and probably shot more than 100.000 rounds.

They were also used by the Swedes for targetrifles, in huge numbers.
I hawe personaly exportes some hundreds to Germany in kal 308, and they were all prooftested, and none failed, so i guess they are more than strong enough.
For some years i used Hornady Light magnum to test a few thousand kal 6,5x55 m96, none had mesurable setbacks.

A funny thing is that of the 3 diferent makers of m96 the topshooters mainly perfered the Mauser makes, ahead of Carl Gustaf, and last Husquarna. Mauser is the softest, C G is semi, and Husquarna is mutch like glass in its casehardening.
The reason for prefering the soft once is that they cary less barrelresonnance. Another thing was that they tend to be "selflapping".
So it might not be a definit signs of setback, even you can registre a narrow edge, where the lugs stops rotating

This is a chance for all of us to learn; When did Sweden use the 91 Mauser?, When did they shoot them more than 100,000 times?.
Take Care!

I have been guilty of developing set backs in Mauser actions. One was a .308 1916, two were Mod 98s. I crushed an action when rebarreling a mod 91 with what seemed like normal torque on the action vise nuts. This was many years ago but I still have the memory that it impressed me to have the strength of butter. Of course that is an exaduration but that was the ratioalization for crushing that action.

On the other hand I have shot with guys that have Mod. 95s and 96s that are in 7x57 (Modern hand loads).308, 22-250, and .243.and they have been range shooting a long time almost once or twice a week. Maybe some bolt handles come up a little hard now and than ,but that seems to be the extent of it. No conclusions here, just information. roger

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
As to the gas handling issue; The 03 Springfield, and pre 68 Mod 70's hasd the same danger with failed case heads. When have you seen a failed case head?.

Look here.

quote:

When have you seen a failed case head?.

I have to admit to seeing one up close and personal. I was stupid and loaded a couple rounds of 6.5x55 in my Win, Fwt Classic and used a middling load of Saeed's at 48G of Re19 and a 140 Sierra Match bullet like his. Not until the floorplate opened up and the gas hit the bench did I realize that was a "tad too much" powder for my rifle, especially when the Alliant max was 46.2 grains. Nice little blowout right at the casehead. That is what happens on a CRF rifle when you overload it.

Thr rifle and I were just fine, but I attribute it to excellent gas diversion properties of the rifle.