How are Kimber Super America stocks made? How can they make them so cheap?

Assume they use a 4 or 5 axis router to machine them. Remember, most of the duplicators use a router/pantograph setup. There are 4/5 axis routers that offer incredible precision.

most stocks are made on gang pantographs/stock lathes .. most checkering is pressed, some cut

"no one" used multi axis cnc machines for stocks ... yeah, there's a couple, but you can't turn out 10 at a time on them, and wood doesn't get along so well with them

pantograph, filed, sanded, checkered, sent to sanding

Ironwood designs builds a fair number of stocks for AKs, FNs, and now ARs. They use a 4 axis router and turn-out multiples at once. It does very nice work.

http://woodworkingnetwork.com/...icle.aspx?oid=934373

And here's a good video showing how most high volume checkering is done today with a laser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...4xfI&feature=related

Austin, no offense, but a california company doesnt turn out anything like 1% of stocks for the AKs.. they' be lucky to make 1% of 1% of 1% .. the russians/commies/chinese make MILLIONS of these a year -- most AR hardware -- military, is injection molded .. as well as most other parts, even alot of the aluminum parts

call remington, winchster, and ruger and ask them how they turn stocks .. i was't speaking from conjecture or low volume companies, i am talking about production rates in the 10s of thousands

"most high volume checkering is done" .. is not with a laser .. again, I am talking about PRODUCTION not niche work in a high specialty shop .. pressed checkering takes seconds, and thats mostly on the HOLD part .. the only american company i am aware of that does laser checkering is accurqte invoations/serrengetti ... i've spoken with them, dicussing thiere gang pantograph, and how they like milwauki routers in them

those are cute toys.. i've built a couple 3 axis cnc machines, and a 6 axis manual pantogragh .. i've investigted what remington does, i know the guy that used to supply all of weatherby's wood, and spent awhile researching and watching movies of how they did it back then

heck, i nearly bought a garand oversized "stock lathe" template, made of metal, that was offered here for sale

i am telling you, its not done anywhere like as hightech as we might like to think it could be done...

5 axis routers don't workout well for 1 piece rifle stocks ... the wood MOVES under pressure, cutting, binding from rotation, etc, and the machine cuts it anyway .. its been tried by SEVERAL high end gun makers, with the results being the same .. too many high dollar blanks having to be replaced

gunstock lathes and gang pantographs are how the majority of stocks (commerical and those of wood in military applications) are done ....

Jeff
Somethings are just best left the way they are. And the gun stock lathe and the stock duplicator are two machines that technology is having a hard time beating.

Before CNC and even NC there was a machine called a "tracer" and it can be a lathe or a mill. Single head or multiple head. It took forever to set up for a single part compared to CNC machines but it would run day in and day out for years producing as many parts as you need. The stock duplicator is a variation of the tracer mill or vise versa. And when a machine can be expanded upon simply by adding extra positions. You have to stop and think... That is the only way to build gun stocks on a production level Once you can cut more then three at a time you just shot CNC in the foot. And a CNC doesn't know the wood moved and to go back and go over that spot again But a human running a duplicator can see it and can adjust on the fly which a CNC can't. Yeah you can program multiple passes but if they are not needed you're wasting time.

I'm a big fan of CNC I've used them for years. But they are not the end all of machine tools. Manual machines will be around forever. just like the duplicator.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

i know the guy that used to supply all of weatherby's wood, and spent awhile researching and watching movies of how they did it back then

Who was that? I know the guys who supply most(well at least a lot) of Weatherby's wood now.

PM me if you like.

KC,
i think we agree -- i have been saying that CNC isn't the majority producer of gunstocks ... your post kind of implies that i think cnc is making the bulk ... i might be misreading that

JB,
I'll pm you after a bit, i don't have the contact info at my fingertips

Jeff We're on the same page the first sentence is addressed to you. The paragraph below is a general statement of why CNC is not the best choice.

I spent a lot of time in the Old Kimber of Oregon plant, from 1987 to 1992

The had a German profiler, that held 4 stock blanks at a time, that used a saw blade with round carbide inserts about 1/2" wide and the blade about 12" in diameter, and it used a cast iron template in the form of a stock. Index holes of 3/8" were used, two on the butt and one on the tip. The stylus would start at one end of the pattern/stocks, as all five would slowly rotate as the saw moved from one end to the other. This would get the basic outside shape to about 85%.

Then they would go to a CNC mill, and index off those two holes, using a 4th axis. The top inleting would be machined, the air vise opened, the stock indexed another 90 degrees. The one side of the buttplate cut and the flat of the pistol grip done. Another vise opening and indexing of 90 degress, vise closed and the trigger guard inleted. Another vise opening, and indexing to the 270 degree mark for the off side of the buttplate. The forend tips of the SA were added on later.

Later when they got the 82 Goverment 22 project going, they made the stocks at the Colton plant. They had two machining centers machining two of the Goverment stocks at a time. With those high speed machine centers, the noise was so bad, they built a special room just to house the two machines, and the operater only went in to load the machines. Once loaded, he stepped out behind into an inner room to turn the machines on. IIRC it took about 12 minutes to inlet the four stocks.
You could hear and feel those machines from about 50 foot away, when they were running.

When they were cleaning out the Clackamas plant moving all of the operations to Colton, they had BOXES of used buttplates, and grip caps that went into the garbage. Dang I only grabbed a handfull at the time.

James Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

I am wondering why nobody has come up with a resonable price nice stock that can be used for Win, Mauser, and Rem. A custom stock is 3-5 times what the cost of a complete Kimber SA rifle.

I think Accurate Innovations makes a nice stock; no where near what you get with a true custom.

Jeffoso -

Yes I am humbled. Thanks for the info. I had no idea that they large volume manufacturers had not found more efficient methods yet.

I'll give you an example in my line of work - high tech. The advances in the components and designs that we implement continue to increase in performance and complexity; all while cost is going down. After 20 years of doing this, still amazed at the advances in semiconductors.

However, the advances in technologies (and lowering costs) for power supplies and batteries in high tech move slower than our government trying to secure our borders. The only advances are "perceived ones" due to more efficient power use by semiconductors.

Thanks!

PS: I am even more humbled today due to the fact I had two tumors removed from my bladder this morning (will have the results next week) and they must have shoved a 458 barrel up my you know what to do the surgery. And I thought the camera they used last week was big. Damn.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
most stocks are made on gang pantographs/stock lathes .. most checkering is pressed, some cut

"no one" used multi axis cnc machines for stocks ... yeah, there's a couple, but you can't turn out 10 at a time on them, and wood doesn't get along so well with them

pantograph, filed, sanded, checkered, sent to sanding

Hi Jeff
If you look a little at this link, you would se a little of what nobody does
http://www.schultzlarsen.com/SL.wmv

Hey - that was pretty cool.

Here's a link to a video on Marlin's factory. They use Zuckerman/hi-volume process that Jeffosso outlines - they use sanding belts instead of router bits. Pretty cool. Their checkering is actually machine cut. Start video around 6:18 at http://www.americanrifleman.or...aspx?vid=1862&cid=23


I remember seeing a bit on American Rifleman on CZ and the final assembly and stock work they do in the USA. I couldn't find the video though.

Here's the other guy I was thinking about. Very specialized manufacturing, not low cost or high volume, but accurate.

http://www.josephbrazier.com/gallery.php?page=32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9lVViclAiI

quote:

Originally posted by EDMHUNTER:
I am wondering why nobody has come up with a resonable price nice stock that can be used for Win, Mauser, and Rem. A custom stock is 3-5 times what the cost of a complete Kimber SA rifle.

Not sure what you're getting at?? Cost of wood is a large part of it but when you send off that $4K blank to the stock maker it damn sure better come back in great shape. That's a lot of money to trust to kid with a pocket knife. I really believe you are paying for skill.

And they do make a reasonable priced stock for a Win, Mauser, Rem. Etc It's called a McMillian

JA,rgen, that is a great video. Thanks for sharing.

That shop reminded me of the Hogan's Heroes episode where they 'escaped" and adjusted the machinery in a 88mm Flak gun factory to rifle the barrels wrong and blow up.

quote:

Not sure what you're getting at?? Cost of wood is a large part of it but when you send off that $4K blank to the stock maker it damn sure better come back in great shape. That's a lot of money to trust to kid with a pocket knife. I really believe you are paying for skill.

And they do make a reasonable priced stock for a Win, Mauser, Rem. Etc It's called a McMillian

You are right. I was thinking a wood stock alternative to a McMillan not a full blown $8000.00 custom. I think there would be a market for such a stock. Kimber SA is the best looking stock on the mass produced guns IMHO. If someone was to make a stock like that for $2000.00, it would be another option instead of a McMillan.