what are the real differences in terms of life and accuracy between Chrome molly and Stainless Steel.

I have heard that SS barrels last a lot longer in overbore cartridges. Is this true?

Thanks,

RobertD

quote:

I have heard that SS barrels last a lot longer in overbore cartridges. Is this true?

The best info I've read on this is that stainless barrels last about 1/3 rd longer....not at all the double and triple life stated by some

I personally think that there is not much difference. I have shot a couple CM benchrest barrels and the accuracy level was the same as a SS at 1300 rounds and with a bore scope the throats looked the same.
Butch

There's a real big difference: In real cold weather the SS is a whole lot more prone to blowing up.

By the top makers, not mutch.
For cheaper barrels, CM will normally last longer and give better precision.
And, John has a good point.

I was building a rifle for a girl, and the bluing would not work on the barrel. It was stainless!
I had to paint it.

Stainless copper-fouls less and is easier to clean?

stainless came about because it is a bit more resistant to erosion than is the chrome moly. Target shooters in the 50's were getting better barrel life because of less throat erosion in stainless. In the case of a hunting rifle I really don't think there is a hoot of difference. however I do believe i get a tad better accuracy from the cm than stainless.

Stainless resists adverse environments by a substantial degree. Why do stainless razor blades stay sharper 10 times longer.Of course I do have a light beard. roger

How come that ewery time this discussion comes up. There is a lot of statements claming that SS barrels last longer, shoots better and cleans easier.
This time thoug i must admit there is more balanced statements
My only problem is that those pr SS statments is never based on comparing tests, or anything like. To be a little provokative, the statements is mainly based on undocumented hersay.

I have over the years ben involved in several comparing tests, and to disapoint you, they have all shown no advantages to the SS.

Only the wery best of the stainless (or mildly rustinhibited) barrels lasted as long as the croMo barrels, using the same calibers, loads and scrap criteria.

The most extreme was a guy shooting 6.5-06 , He burned out 3 different SS barrels in avarage 1200-1500 rounds. Then he got installed a CroMo barrel, and it lasted over 7000 rds, meeting the same accuracy criteria as the SS barrels.

I found a couple of Quotes from a test of a CroMo barreled rifle

quote:

I was surprised that in the instructions that came with the rifle they didn’t recommend the use of bore solvents in their barrels and to clean only with good quality gun oil. I was slightly disbelieving of this however after much shooting I put an oily rag through the barrel and to my surprise there was little or no fouling in the bore, but then of course they are lapped in the factory for a near perfect finish. The finish was fantastic looking through the borescope. The barrel is 26 inches on this rifle which in my opinion is the ideal minimum length in 6.5x284 to get the best velocity.

quote:

I put a few loads together for a starter and straight out of the box with no running in she shot like a dream. The accuracy was unbelievable; cut rifle barrels rule-OK!

quote:

I am happy but I was gob smacked to see my first five shots produce a very tiny ragged hole; then the same again with the next load and the one after that. I gave up contemplating a more powerful scope because I doubted I could do a lot better than I had already achieved. This rifle just sang sweet music every time I pulled the trigger and I do believe that it is probably the most accurate factory rifle I have tested so far

If you want to see environmental effect look at SS hardware vs Steel hardware on ocean going fishing boats. Ware from shooting is probably not the factor to be considered with ss vs steel. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If you want to see environmental effect look at SS hardware vs Steel hardware on ocean going fishing boats. Ware from shooting is probably not the factor to be considered with ss vs steel.

The stainless steel hardware used in the Marine environment is austenitic stainless which is a bit different from that which is used for firearms.

I really don't think there is a nickels worth of difference in wear. I believe the stainless is a little easier for the barrel makers to rifle and more attention is paid to them. A stainless barrel will stain.
Butch

This is great info, I appreciate all the comments. One nice thing about CM is that it will take a very nice high polish blue, whereas SS is just SS or painted.

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
If you want to see environmental effect look at SS hardware vs Steel hardware on ocean going fishing boats. Ware from shooting is probably not the factor to be considered with ss vs steel.

The stainless steel hardware used in the Marine environment is austenitic stainless which is a bit different from that which is used for firearms.

Don't often differ with Westpac but a skipper friend of mine kept a stainless mini 14 on his commercial fishing boat out of Oxnard that far outlasted any steel rifle he used before.
What would be interesting also, at least to me, is this topic being joined by coastal Alaskan outfitters. I can only go by what I observe which is far less than they encounter. roger

Yeah, I don't think there is any question that SS lasts much better in a salt air than CM. It isn't perfect but by comparison it is sure close!

I knew about this, I was more concerned about barrel wear and perhaps accuracy.

Robert D

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Don't often differ with Westpac but a skipper friend of mine...

I don't doubt that. I was just saying that the stainless used on boats is a different type of stainless than what is used on guns.

Back in the '80's I was contacted by a friend in Cape Hatteras, NC. A charter boat captain had died and his family came down to clean off the boat. They discovered 1 Ruger 357 security six, 1 Ruger 22LR single six and 1 Ruger 223 Mini-14. All stainless and all rusted badly from being stored on the boat for several years.
I was working for a shop that did various types of finishes and restorations. It took a heap of beadblasting and polishing to restore these 3. Stainless does rust.

In an effort to cut down on the rusting of some SS Winchester 375's, I took them apart and polished all of the parts to a very smooth finish. Rust issue became almost nil. These were used on a near daily basis in a high humidity salt environment. The bead blasted surfaces hold more of the rust causing elements and aid corrosion. Better than chrome moly but not impervious.

butchloc
one of us

Posted 08 December 2008 19:42 Hide Post
stainless came about because it is a bit more resistant to erosion than is the chrome moly. Target shooters in the 50's were getting better barrel life because of less throat erosion in stainless. In the case of a hunting rifle I really don't think there is a hoot of difference. however I do believe i get a tad better accuracy from the cm than stainless.

Posts: 5014 | Location: faribault mn | Registered: 16 November 2004

I'm not agreeing with the above statement .

I believe I get a tad bit longer accuracy from SS as an accurate barrel is just that, ACCURATE.

Regardless of being SS or CM some people are simply set in their ways as too Hammer forged barrels

Rifle cut or button pulled or pushed or ?.

I give the benefit of the doubt too the barrel makers as they pretty well have a handle on what works

and what doesn't . I personally have seen .225 MOA rifles from both materials and lord knows

what ever barrel processes were used making them . Metallurgist seem to agree SS will give an edge

in longevity .

Last month, i testfiered an old CroMo barreled rifle in caliber 6.5x55.
It has fiered more than 5500 rds, and has only ben cleaned or oiled once at 2500 rds.

The result was a 5 rd group at 100meter, using turned belted copperbullet, center-center was apx 3mm, or 0.1"
Next was a 5rd groupe using factoryloaded balistic tip resulting in a center-center of 8mm or 0.3"

5 rd group using Norma Gold Target, resulted in 0.2" group.

Maybe it is because it is burned out, or because it is not cleaned, or not broken in.
Or it might be because of my Parkinson, hitting the right frequence to counterbalance the normal spread.

With a little practice and a SS barrel i ame sure that i can do better

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
There's a real big difference: In real cold weather the SS is a whole lot more prone to blowing up.

I've heard this before. Why is this?

Ken....

jA,rgen,
I'll raise the BS flag on that.
Butch

I have heard from a well know barrel maker, John Krieger, that a stainless barrel will shoot better faster but a CM barrel with shoot better longer.

I have no way to verify that.

quote:

I've heard this before. Why is this

some types of stainless get brittle when they get "REAL" cold.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
jA,rgen,
I'll raise the BS flag on that.
Butch

Why?
In a good barrel I have seen simmilar many times, spesially in S&L and Sauer match barrels for the Sauer 200 STR.
What I think Jørgen is not telling us, is that this barrel had not had any solid copper bullets previous to this test, and that some shots were taken before theese groups were shooten.

But Jørgen, I have done simmilar with Walther SS barrels...in Remington 700's....

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
jA,rgen,
I'll raise the BS flag on that.
Butch

Why?
In a good barrel I have seen simmilar many times, spesially in S&L and Sauer match barrels for the Sauer 200 STR.
What I think Jørgen is not telling us, is that this barrel had not had any solid copper bullets previous to this test, and that some shots were taken before theese groups were shooten.

But Jørgen, I have done simmilar with Walther SS barrels...in Remington 700's....

Hi Bent
Dont take away the amusement and proudness from butch, as he has realizes how to use smilies .

In fact this results was done with a heavily used barrel, where no cleaning has ben done what so ever, except once after 2500 rds.

The copper group was done after several tests performed with a mix of coated and uncoated standatdbullets, followed buy a sesion testing aluminiumsbullets and brassbullets. This result was the first copperbullets fiered in this barrel, no fouling in shot.

It was to illustrate the fact that there is wery little need for cleaning in a correctly produced CroMo barrel

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Last month, i testfiered an old CroMo barreled rifle in caliber 6.5x55.
It has fiered more than 5500 rds, and has only ben cleaned or oiled once at 2500 rds.

The result was a 5 rd group at 100meter, using turned belted copperbullet, center-center was apx 3mm, or 0.1"
Next was a 5rd groupe using factoryloaded balistic tip resulting in a center-center of 8mm or 0.3"

5 rd group using Norma Gold Target, resulted in 0.2" group.

Maybe it is because it is burned out, or because it is not cleaned, or not broken in.
Or it might be because of my Parkinson, hitting the right frequence to counterbalance the normal spread.

With a little practice and a SS barrel i ame sure that i can do better

Well, I'll raise the

without the smiley.

Why don't we just do a little experiment with that 5500 round plus rifle and CM barrel for money. I'll pay you $1000 or 1000E for every 5 shot .100 inch group or less that you shoot at 100 meters with it and you pay me $500 or 500E for anything larger, minimum of 5 5 shot groups (that will pay for my plane ticket). Let me know when you want to start shooting and I'll bring money.

quote:

Well, I'll raise the

without the smiley.

That is for sure. Now Gatogordo ifs he can do it with 5 straight groups then he could blow away the world record.
http://nbrsa.org/nbrsa-short-r...-records#attachments

Stainless offers longer throat and barrel life,due to the higher chrome content in the
alloy it retards erosion . Regards,Chris

Pac-Nor

I've got several more from other barrel manufactures as well ,as they all point these facts out !.

The differences being say a CM with a Chrome Lined bore well that's an entirely different horse !.

I cant tell you anything on the above theorys......I can tell you after drilling miles of holes in 41Xchromo and miles of holes in just about every stainless there is....stainless machines a TON tougher. 41Xchromo cuts,taps,turns,grinds, like butter....stainless is tough, wears out drill points,carbide inserts,and doesn't stick to a grinder magnet nearly as good and will flat loads up a grinding wheel....With all this said I would bet the stainless to be tougher.

Stainless softer than 41Xchromo? NO WAY!!!!

How do I know this?? 30 years of cutting the stuff every day tells me this.

The reason why SS is claimed to be more accurate is the fact that it is softer than CM. The softer SS allows for easier machining and also gives a better surface finish. This better finish is what makes cleaning easier. SS also takes heat much better due to the chrome in it, which was mention by someone else. They also seem to break in much quicker than CM barrels. But, becareful when cleaning because the crown of SS barrels is a little more delicate than CM barrels. Also in my opinion the softer SS dampens harmonics better, but I have no proof.

In terms of life SS does seem to last longer even though CM is stronger and harder. The inaccuracy of SS barrels, not due to the throat erosion, seems to usually stem from damage done while cleaning, ie. crown dings, bore scratches, throat wear from the cleaning rod rubbing. I've seen it all.

Good Luck!

Man,
Everybody are coming out of the woodwork. No proof, but a lot of opinion. Mine included.
Butch

This I can vouch for -stainless is a lot easier to care for if you are constantly in the rain or around salt water.
As for being more prone to blow up in cold - I would like to hear more abour that. My 17 Rem has a stainless bbl and I have used it for years at temps down to minus 40 with no problems and my 375 M-70 has a stainless bbl turned down to a ftw contour and it also has seen so pretty cold temps.
Anyone with FACTS?

If the pictures came through....
I don't know that cold weather aids in SS "blowing up" but it does seem that failures occur at a greater rate than CM. Typical of what I've seen is the metal seems to tear easier once the a failure occurs regardless of the initial cause.

Should have attached two more.



Note the rust on the split Savage barrel.

The problem is there are so many different alloys used by various manufacturers one can't simply compare "stainless" to "chrome molly"

There are some "stainless" guns that rust up at a sickening rate in a marine environment, others that have a suprising resistance to corrosion.

And barrel life questions require a statement of the alloy, heat treatment, work hardening and how well the machine work was done while boring and rifling.

Seems to target shooters go through barrels faster than the sport hunters, and for some darn reason stainless barrels are what you find on the firing line at competitions. Could be a monkey see monkey do thing, or it could be that the stainless barrels have a slight edge.

Paul,
I think if you research it and get honest answers, you will find the barrel people buy the same 416R stainless from the same suppliers. Crucible and Carpenter to name a couple. If you have Rockwell tested them, you will find them to be the same in hardness.
Butch

I don't argue with anyone any longer as it's counter productive .

Besides I'm no barrel manufacturer , I simply rely on what the " Professionals " say and use

Lets face some facts their in the business and if one thing is proven to work over another

They'll produce it in a heart beat . Some people myself included couldn't bare to see a

fine old English Dbl. barrel with Circassian Walnut and a SS barrel !. Sacrilegious or should be!.

I simply trust these as well as other manufactures . They KNOW what their doing !!.

The Making of a Rifle Barrel

By Daniel Lilja

Gary Sandlin, the NBRSA Gulf Coast regional director, asked me recently to write an article for NBRSA NEWS describing in general terms how a rifle barrel is manufactured. I will attempt to do so without getting too technical. Hopefully I won't reveal anyone's "secrets", either.

For the smaller custom barrel makers, there are two basic types of rifling methods to choose from: button rifling and cut rifling. Large manufacturers also may choose to hammer forge barrels. The capital investment required to hammer forge barrels is high, keeping it out of the reach of smaller makers. There is no loss here though, because generally speaking the quality of a buttoned or cut rifled barrel is superior to the forged types. There is also some work being done with chemically rifled barrels, similar to an EDM process. However, I haven't seen a barrel made by this process that looked to be of suitable quality for match shooting.

Since my experience is mostly with buttoned barrels, I'll probably seem a little biased towards that method. Within the realm of buttoned barrels there are two methods of manufacture. The button can either be pushed or pulled through the barrel. Cut rifled barrels can be either single point cut, one groove at a time, or they might be broached. Broaching is a quicker method but requires more expensive tooling. Also the quality may be lower. Usually pistol barrels are the only type broached.

The barrel maker must choose the type of steel the barrels are made from. Most often this would be either a chrome-moly steel such as 4140 or a stainless steel such as type 416. The important characteristics of the steel are its machinability, longevity, and strength. Other considerations are secondary, such as its ability to be blued or resistance to corrosion. Almost 100% of the barrels used in competitive bench rest shooting are made from stainless steel. The grades of stainless used for barrels are fairly machinable and offer a longer accuracy life over conventional chrome-moly. They are also more resistant to some of the harsh cleaners used by accuracy shooters. A side benefit is their ability to resist corrosion.

There are several vendors of both chrome-moly and stainless steels that offer a steel suitable for manufacturing high quality rifle barrels. The steel is furnished in bar lengths of 12-20 feet and diameters suitable for the application. Most barrels for bench rest type barrels and hunting and varmint barrels are made from steel of about 1.25" in diameter. Barrels for unlimited type rifles might be made from a larger diameter, and those for rimfire rifles from 1" diameter or so.

The first step in making a barrel is to cut the bar to a length of 28" or so, for a barrel that will finish to a normal length. Then the bar is placed in the drilling machine. If the material is not straight it should be trued up. Because the barrel, not the drill, spins in the machine, any imbalance in the material will cause problems. This is especially true because of the high RPM's at which the barrel is turning.

.429 May I ask how cold it was when the barrel peeled ? I would assume Savage made good on it !??.

How old is that rifle ?. I know that Tikka and Sako had expressed earlier concerns over this potential

problem . However the Content of metals that go into making SS Barrels has been altered so as to

prevent that very thing from happening . Ruger has also changed it's SS to prevent it as has Lilja.

Barrel SS isn't and I repeat ISN'T std. 416 grade !.

I would also note personally I'm NEVER HUNTING in -40 -60 or any other lung freezing weather.

About -20 is as far as I'm prepared to go PERIOD and have without mishap !.