Guys,

Hopefully I lured some of you gunsmiths here into looking at this.

This is a commercial FN 98 pattern that I took to a local "gunsmith" to have the barrel pulled.

So, he tells me that he is really struggling to get it off and wants to grind flats on the barrel to gain purchase. He has the the action in a proper vise/wrench, so it should be okay.

Well he does not get the barrel off and tells me that he "may have" hit the front front ring while grinding the flats on the bbl. As you can see in the pics, there was no "may have" here.





So, I was hoping to get some thoughts on this "damage" to the ring. I know, or at least I think I know, it is not major, but is this easy enough to (safely) clean-up during a re-barreling? I was just really pissed as this Fn was really in very nice shape and looked barely fired. I plan to have it re-barreled and made into a semi-custom and want to make sure that this is not an issue.

Oh yeah, he says he "doesn't think" he bent the action either....

Yet another one added to the "never again" list.

Thanks!

Bob

Unless you plan on making a $10K custom out of it, I wouldn't worry. That should stone out pretty well before you refinish it.

you weren't at brock's gunsmiting in spokane, wa were you?

I agree it should stone out easy but I'd give that guy an ear full. All he had to do was set it up in the lathe and use a part off tool to relieve the shoulder on the barrel that removes a large portion of the tension on the shoulder and allow the barrel to nearly screw off by hand.

With proper equipment it should have been no problem removing that barrel without damaging it. This guy really owes you for the barrel and a re-blue on the action. I would not let him touch it again.

You can spin the action in a lathe and easily dress the ring. The guy sounds like a hack though.

he says he "doesn't think" he bent the action either....Uh Oh..
Geeze! Id be pissed

Glad you guys think he is a hack also. I wouldnt let him work on my 'neighbors' lawn mower

may have? or MIGHT have? about like he MIGHT have to fix it, right?

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
I agree it should stone out easy but I'd give that guy an ear full. All he had to do was set it up in the lathe and use a part off tool to relieve the shoulder on the barrel that removes a large portion of the tension on the shoulder and allow the barrel to nearly screw off by hand.

1914 ans 1917 enfields DO work that way -- i don't know about lee enfields, as i haven't taken one apart

milsurp are NOT torqued to the front shoulder, they are torqued on the inner flange .. 49,000,000 military mausers done this way, by design

as far as i know, some sporters are sometimes made that way ...

what plumbing shop did you take it to?

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
I agree it should stone out easy but I'd give that guy an ear full. All he had to do was set it up in the lathe and use a part off tool to relieve the shoulder on the barrel that removes a large portion of the tension on the shoulder and allow the barrel to nearly screw off by hand.

I can't understand why this "theory" keeps popping up!

I'd spin the action in a lathe just enough to clean up the "ding" with a slight bevel, but I'd have another smith do the job. Throw the barrel away or use it for a tent stake.

First, have a REAL smith use his thread mandrel in his lathe to true the receiver face to its threads and relieve the first thread for clearance. This is SOP for most Mausers when smithed, the procedure is taught in first-year smithing class. It's not quite as good as chasing/truing the threads themselves but is a lot faster and is perfectly adequate for most Mauser applications. The REAL smith can check the receiver for straightness while he's doing this, sounds like it's probably hosed up.

Second, let others know who did this to you! Wouldn't you have wanted to be warned about him before you had this experience?
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
I agree it should stone out easy but I'd give that guy an ear full. All he had to do was set it up in the lathe and use a part off tool to relieve the shoulder on the barrel that removes a large portion of the tension on the shoulder and allow the barrel to nearly screw off by hand.

I can't understand why this "theory" keeps popping up!

KC's theory has worked for me for many years. Works fine on everything except 1888 Commission rifles and 1898 Mausers and actually works on them about half the time, at least for me it has.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
I agree it should stone out easy but I'd give that guy an ear full. All he had to do was set it up in the lathe and use a part off tool to relieve the shoulder on the barrel that removes a large portion of the tension on the shoulder and allow the barrel to nearly screw off by hand.

I can't understand why this "theory" keeps popping up!

Because on every 98 that I've rebarreled it has worked. It still requires some work but it takes a lot less torque to remove on the ones I've done.
I understand that the inner ring is also torqued but the front shoulder receives it's far share as well. Now depending on if this action was rebarreled some other time in it's life it may not require relieving the front shoulder as the prior gunsmith may not have seated the barrel correctly in the first place.

That work is total bull shit! He owes you a new barrel. Thank god that idiot didn't ruin the action! HE DID NOT HAVE THE PROPER TOLLS TO REMOVE THAT BARREL. THATS WHY HE F%*&$@ IT UP!

From what I can tell from the picture that should be an easy fix.(not that it should have happened to begin with)...
Find a real barrelsmith and the ring would be trued for a new barrel anyway.I can see this guy after the barrel was installed with a q-tip cold blueing it.
YOU NEED A NEW SMITH!

Am I wrong guys that he must have been grinding by hand, if he'd had it locked down and milled the flats on, or used a surface grinder then he wouldn't have hit the ring. had to be freehand right?

definitely go to somebody else and let everybody know who this joker is.

Red

Name and shame. Because as another has said wouldn't you have preferred to know about him before you went there?

How much did he charge to do it? And how much does he charge to do it properly?

Blackbart
Maybe I missed this somewhere in the thread.... but are you going to let the same gu gu gunsmit put the new barrel on? I hope not. Looks to me like he is a hack! I really do not see any excuse for this type of work. But if there is nothing else wrong it is very easy to fix

Dirk Schimmel

and, of course, if you picked up one of his rifles, hit it with a file, and set it back in the rack, he would expect YOU to buy the whole gun ...

in other words, he only calls it a "ding" on YOUR rifle .. on his, it would be "you ruint it"

Most likley free hand. If he's too lazy to invest in the proper tooling he damn sure is too lazy to set it up in a mill or grinder and put flats on it that way. But the question begs why flats when the proper tools would have done the job??????
Just another hacksaw and file type guy. Should be relegated to paintball guns or pee shooters.

Hope you go down and rescue whats left of your rifle before he has a chance to do anything else

Look at the bright side. He has given you a head start in making a unique barrel. How about extending the flats all the way to the muzzle and making a "pentagon" profile?

Joking aside, I would get the parts back from him and commission a proper gunsmith before a fine action is left useless.

Dressing up the front of the ring is a no brainer.

The barrel is trash anyway...why screw around? Just get it back and move on...life is too short.

Unbelievable.

A couple of opposed pipe wrenches would have got better results.

Guys,

Thanks for all the comments and feedback!

A couple of points/clarifications.

I have this back, so no risk of further "work". I NEVER planned for this fellow to do anything other than remove the barrel. This was/id destined to be a relatively cost-contained project and I have a chambered and threaded Shilen bbl that I wanted to thread on and bed the action bbl into the stock I have (yes, it is Fiberglass...a Brown Precision) before sending it off to have a 3-position safety installed, bbl headspaced and blued up in the Pacfic Northwest. I basically wanted to try and get the bedding done before it was blued up to avoid messing up the finish.

I have somewhat recently moved to SE PA where I don't know of many local gunsmiths so aked around at a few shops and went to visit this fellow's "shop". I nearly left on the spot but he showed me his action wrenches and so on and said this was no sweat. Seemed to make sense to me...how hard could this be. Well, we see what happened. He did use a parting tool to relieve the barrel, and smoked the barrel in the process, but this was a Higgins 50 bbl and though I would've liked to save it, I wasn't too outta sorts on that count. The reckless hand grinding and hitting the front ring really steamed me though. I was so mad I could not find words. I just grabbed it and left with my BP on the rise....

At this point I need to make sure that the action is sound. The front ring looked to me an easy, mostly cosmetic, fix and you guys have confirmed my thoughts there for the most part. I guess now I have to make sure it is not twisted though. Other that running the bolt through it, which seems be unchanged, and placing it back into the Higgins stock, I don't have a way to assess this. I will just send it out to get the work done and see what is determined.

As for "outing" the guy, I really hesitate to do something like that publically, but if you live in SE PA and want to know I would do so via PM.

Sadly, at this point in my life I have had more bad experiences with gunsmiths than good, though the balance is slowly shifting as I get older and wiser. I would've never dreamed of having this guy do anything more that remove a Mauser barrel thinking, boy any gunsmith should be able to do that....well apparently not..

Bob

I may get flamed for this But a good local smith is a rarity these days. We have our group of top notch guys here but try to find someone of Kobe's, Wiebe's or Westpac's caliber at you local shop. Good friggin luck. I have one guy here in my area that I use for stock work because his work is near flawless but the metal smith they had was a hack. Their apprentice is much better and they may get some work from me But I do my own smithing because I can. I've seen my share of monkey's with wrenches working on stuff they have no business touching. I just scratch my head and wonder how they stay in business.

quote:

Oh yeah, he says he "doesn't think" he bent the action either....

Conjures up an image of a cheater bar placed through the receiver... eek.

Yep better have it fully examined buy a competent gunsmith.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
First, have a REAL smith use his thread mandrel in his lathe to true the receiver face to its threads and relieve the first thread for clearance. This is SOP for most Mausers when smithed, the procedure is taught in first-year smithing class. It's not quite as good as chasing/truing the threads themselves but is a lot faster and is perfectly adequate for most Mauser applications. The REAL smith can check the receiver for straightness while he's doing this, sounds like it's probably hosed up.
Regards, Joe

One indication of competence IMO is whether the 'smith' under consideration has a Mauser thread mandrel or even knows what one is. It's a long round bar with OD slightly smaller than the bolt body, longer than the receiver by several inches, and with a closely-fitting threaded section near one end that's dimensioned to fit the receiver's threads quite closely. The mandrel is machined between centers and is designed to index on the receiver's threads rather than its bolt raceway.

A receiver mandrel OTOH is a similar-length bar that has no threads but is machined to be a very close fit in the receiver's bolt raceway, indexing on it rather than the threads.

Any smith who does any receiver work at all should have at least one of these mandrels, and actually he/she SHOULD have a pair for each type action smithed on more than an occasional basis. IMO this is one more way for the new client to gain confidence in his potential choice of smiths. Or not.
Good luck and regards, Joe