So, I have a 35 Whelen barrel that was a little short chambered. I was hand reaming and checking often to try to get it to just close on a GO gauge, but by the time it did... it also closed on the NO/GO.

The diff between gauges is .006, so I was planning to set it back that much, figuring that if it just closes on a NO/GO then after setback it should just close on the GO.

Is my logic sound in this? Any other approaches to consider?

You have it right. If the chamber is too long, you have to set back that amount to fix it. Be mindful of the clearance between the bolt nose/extractor and the barrel breech, if this is not a Mauser.


Jeremy

Unless you are worried about using factory ammo I would just set my die up for my chamber.

Had one I screwed up worse than that. Was setting my chamber up for my wildcat. Left the shroud on my MKX what I was feeling was the spring not a crush fit. Went WAY too deep.

Do not try to horse it on another .006; won't work and no need.
If you have the reamer, then set is back and make it right. If you do not have the reamer, do what Ram said to do.
If it just closes on the no go gauge, then it is still too long; I make them just close on the go gauge.
Having said that, none of this matters and is easily corrected with loading technique.

Without a lathe there is no simple fix.

It is a Mauser, and I do have a lathe. Just a cheap 9x20 Chinese benchtop, and I am a rank hobbiest, but facing off the breech and shoulder should not present a problem.

I want it to be in spec for factory ammo. Thanks for confirming my logic, .006" it is then...

I make them with some feel when closing. For hunters, barely any feel on ammo .

I would just face off the breach face and shoulder the required amount. No big deal.

Easy enough to fix

(this will start a bushwar)


on a CORRECTLY (according to Mauser, not Dunlap) setup mauser barrel, only the tenon is only in contact with the flange.. and its a simple enough thing to fix

again, the roughly 49,000,000 military mausers out there, only the barrel tenon is in contact, the shoulder of the barrel is not in contact, literally by design

again, this is only meant to stir the pot, and not being a serious answer for the man's question

Jeffeosso, I get your point, but if I am already set up properly then I still need to take off an equal amount from both the shoulder and breach, otherwise it would have no effect on actually shortening the chamber, right?

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


on a CORRECTLY (according to Mauser, not Dunlap) setup mauser barrel, only the tenon is only in contact with the flange.question

***** Yeah, well Paul Mauser was a dweeb ! *****

I double, dog ass dare you to post that on the Mauser Central forum. I think Adolph Hitler still posts there from his hospital bed in South America ! he he he

Right, only the breech face/ end of the barrel is torqued against the inner receiver ring. The barrel shoulder might touch the receiver ring, but only lightly. Yes, you need to remove metal from both places to get the barrel to move back, assuming you made both surfaces touch, or almost touch, to start with.
I have no idea what Mauser central is; sounds like a place that would piss me off. I didn't start collecting Mausers yesterday.

A friend of mine had a custom rifle made by one of these Hollywood / gunmakers guild clowns and brought it over to show me. The first thing I saw was about a 1/64th gap between the receiver face and the barrel shoulder. I really couldn't care what some German, whose lederhosen was to sizes too small thought 100 years ago. It looked like hell. Just because some clown wants to jump off a bridge, doesn't mean that I have to dive after him. I'll use the ladder and grade his inkblot at the bottom.

quote:

1/64th gap

Don't think Jeff or anyone else would say 1/64 is right. However firm against the inner ring and touching the outer ring works for me.

quote:

I double, dog ass dare you to post that on the Mauser Central forum

Yep, then sit back and watch the sparks fly!
Torque ring first, I say. After that, if you can get the barrel shoulder within even an oversize RCH, no one will know the difference. Nor care.

What Paul said! Looks like he finished typing before me...

The way I see this is that whether it can be fixed by loading technique is not so much the issue as what is the next guy who gets this rifle without knowing what is going on going to do??

Even if left as is, it wouldn't hurt the next owner if he did nothing but shoot it. It is still within the SAAMI allowable tolerances even if it just closes on the no go gauge.
I make Mauser barrel shoulders barely not touch, by one RCH. The Germans didn't leave a gap either, even in the late WW2 Mausers that had some shortcuts.

it may not injure the next unknowing person who purchases it and shoots it, but regardless, something that isn't up to correct specifications should not be sold to unknowing people in the free market. Its about as dishonest as selling items and then asking the buyer to pay with paypal gift.

I am not saying the current owner is going to sell the gun to an unsuspecting person. But down the line, without fixing it or marking it as having that issue, somebody will get it, probably for value, and would not have paid that value if he or she had known of the issue with it. In other words, they would have gotten screwed.

quote:

It is still within the SAAMI allowable tolerances even if it just closes on the no go gauge.

That as always been my understanding of a no/go gauge

I stole this."""


GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gage, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI’s maximum specifications. The GO gage is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo. Although the GO gage is necessary for a gunsmith or armorer, it usually has fewer applications for the collector or surplus firearms purchaser.
NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace Forster recommends for gunsmiths chambering new, bolt action rifles. This is NOT a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gage, it may still be within SAAMI specifications or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gage. The NO-GO gage is a valuable tool for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight and accurate chamber.
FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gage, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI’s specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gages are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.

His rifle, his time. I would still leave it alone.

As I said, just because it closes on a no go gauge, that does not mean it is either unsafe, or exceeds SAAMI specs. That is what field (reject) gauges are for.
Still, I like my chambers at a minimum length, not max.

I used to know a couple of less than honest gun tinkerers that made most of their beer money by setting back chambers with dead falling GO gauges and NO-GOs that were crushed home. I still see these tight chambered guns that were fawked up by them that are still cropping up today with hard chambering complaints with factory fodder.

Most of the problem seems to stem from the Roy Dunlaps and Jim Charmichals of old who didn't really understand the function of a cartridge case and the measurements thereof. I still see it today in these forums where guys are trying to measure headspace and chamber runout in tenths of thousandths. Tolerance is just that. It's +-plus and minus. The bullet makers use it, die makers use it, gauge makers use it, case makers use it, reamer makers use it, barrel makers use it and rifle makers use it. It's not EGG-ZACKERY !

I find it amazing that you are so often absolutely right in spite of the fact that you are handicapped by the use of such an antiquated system of mensuration. Meaning that "metric" system.
Here are some numbers; the SAAMI allowable tolerance between a min cartridge and a max chamber is .013 inch. For belted ammo, it is .015. If guys really knew what was going on in their rifles, some of them would have conniption fits. I always find it amazing that ammo, die, cartridge and rifle makers do such a good job at it. Some gunsmiths, not so much.
On another note, I can make any 1917 Enfield rifle fail the no go test, easily, due to the cammed locking surfaces.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I find it amazing that you are so often absolutely right in spite of the fact that you are handicapped by the use of such an antiquated system of mensuration. Meaning that "metric" system.

Yeah, that's a still a sore spot for me. That's what happens when you let a grenouille run the country for a while. And now they done-gone-and-done-it AGAIN !

Despite the metric system. I'm still five foots ten. Floor tiles are still 6 inch and 10 inch. 2x4s are still 2x4, even though they are a bit shrunk up. Plywood is still 4x8, ceilings are 8 foot, doors are 80x32, a tract of land is still a mile and its broken up into quarters. To top it off the world still seems to be broken into nautical miles and metric steel is still special order and double the price !

I believe it all stems from the fact that men the world over had stems that were 6 units long. The French men wanted 6 too, but to get it they had to make the unit, small enough to make six units from their one unit. Hence the centimeter. Or so it was explained to me by a very learned gentleman.

REALLY ! I'm actually not bright enough to make this stuff up dontchaknows.

The "go" gauge, in theory, corresponds to Maximum brass headspace; not minimum.
I have done physical work my whole life and have always been kind of semi-fit. Nonetheless, I lack the horsepower to chamber a steel no-go gauge in a minimum chamber in a front-locking rifle. I can force a no-go gauge into a tight Lee Enfield; thanks to the inherent stetchiness of the receiver and compressibility of the bolt but cannot do so on a minimum chambered P14. Just not manly enough, I guess.
I am constantly surprised by the number of times I read that a no-go doesn't really mean it shouldn't go. I have seen this so often lately that I think I should suggest to Dave Kiff that he start marking his gauges as a "might-go but don't worry about it". Regards, Bill

You are right; NO GO means, shouldn't go. If it does, do further research. Doesn't mean the rifle is unsafe. "Might go but don't worry about it" is usually good for hunting rifles. But since the uninformed public needs some standards, the commercial gauges do a good job.
The GO gauge, however, is not the maximum SAAMI ammo dimension. It is possible to have ammo made to the max length, and yet not chamber in a rifle made to take a GO gauge. Those gauges are commercially designed to be somewhere within the SAAMI values. Like I said, it is a miracle that everything works so well together in spite of all the overlapping tolerances.
I got that term from Speerchuck.

If it's that close just fire a low end load with a bullet slightly jammed into the rifling...measure the case with a Hornady headspace gauge...this will give you the ACTUAL HEADSPACE without all the "stuff"...then buy a Redding Competition shell holder for the over less 0.002"...you now have a method to produce perfectly setup resized brass...and don't sweat the small stuff.

I do it the easy way...I size a case in the sizer I'm going to use and use that for a "headspace gauge"...leave 0.006" for the bolt nose and try for 0.006" headspace measurement wise when cutting the chamber. Sometimes if it is a factory round I get a bit of a crush on some brands and none on others but I haven't cut a factory round in a long time...most are wildcats...some can use factory headspace go/no-go gauges, but most don't so SAAMI doesn't come by and I don't get frustrated by any discrepancies.

There is just SO MUCH "STUFF" going totally nutz about headspace that is just basically ends up as "smoke for the un-informed" or a way for the "illuminati" to communicate their expertise to each other and goes WAY over the heads of us simple folk.

You have to understand the tolerances can stack in either direction and there are tolerances for chamber reamers, die reamers, chamber dimensions, brass, loaded ammo, some are SAAMI tolerances and some are manufacturing tolerances, machine tolerances...in other words there are tolerances coming out your gazoch...don't let them put you in the nut house...

DO what dpcd has suggested several times on several threads concerning "headspace" and go enjoy your shooter.

I intend to set the barrel back so it will close on a GO gauge, but not close on a NO/GO gauge.

I understand there are other ways to deal with this, but isn't this the "best" option?

I would go ahead and cut 0.004" off the outer
ring on the barrel.

Don't do anything to the end of the barrel
where it contacts the inner ring.

You can screw it on tight enough with the barrel
still in the lathe to see how it fits now.

I don't care how accurate you think it is
contacting both inner and outer ring at the same
time, it probably isn't.

If that didn't fix it, do the same to the inner ring. Kenny

quote:

Originally posted by sicero:
I would go ahead and cut 0.004" off the outer
ring on the barrel.

Don't do anything to the end of the barrel
where it contacts the inner ring.

How will this shorten the headspace?

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by sicero:
I would go ahead and cut 0.004" off the outer
ring on the barrel.

Don't do anything to the end of the barrel
where it contacts the inner ring.

How will this shorten the headspace?

It's essentially a test to make sure of which shoulder the barrel is crushed to right now. Some times it is almost impossible to measure the distance to the outside shoulder as the OD of the front ring and threads can be very close to the same diameter in a Mauser.

If it is headspaced to the outer ring, shaving .004 off will correct it.

If it isn't the outer ring, you can then take .004 from the inner ring. That will correct the headspace and leave the gap between the barrel shoulder and action face exactly as it was originally.

It's sound advice.

Got it, thanks!

don't take crush fit to an extreme --- don't use a pipe wrench to coverup a measurement error ...

once its in the lathe, take the shoulder back a hair, take the tenon back a hair, and remeasure you headspace depth -

cut/ream as needed...


you have made your own field game, right? some alumimum tape over the boltface end of your go guage... does it close on that?

quote:

take the shoulder back a hair, take the tenon back a hair

Is that red heads or a blonds heads hair they measure differently. A head hair or a other hair might find the red head is a blond.

Thus the hair measurement could be wrong. Do you have a set of certified hair gages to make sure the hair your using is standard.

Doesn't make no nevermind

Average human hair is about .004. Thickest is about .0072. My advice is pretty sound , even for the colorblind.. just avoid the Ole crush fit

LMAO ROFF

Certified Hair Gauges !

That even sounds official.

OH no I've been using the wrong color hair for my fine measurements. Need to switch. Hope all those projects stay together.

"""Each individual red strand is thicker than its blonde, black, or brunette counterparts, but redheads typically have up to 30 percent fewer strands on their heads, making hair loss and thinning a potential concern."""