Most of the actions I use are of considerably newer metalurgy than the Mausers. I looking into doing one for myself on a Mauser with a few modifications. I know I will be needing to have the action re-heat treated, and am curious as to who is doing this.

I've been having good success with Pacific Metallurgical in Washington state.

Reasonable price and about 30 day turnaround and haven't had one warped on me yet!

Pacific Metallurgy in Kent, Wa. and Blanchard Metals Processing in SLC, Ut.

Thanks for the quick reply. I was doing a search on another subject, and found them being recomended there as well.

Not to start a war here, but where are you checking the hardness of your Mauser action? I know they are usually "soft" on the outside, but how about checking the locking lugs and the camming surfaces. These are almost always plenty hard enough for cartridges designed for the action.

Just my 2 cents.
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Not to start a war here, but where are you checking the hardness of your Mauser action? I know they are usually "soft" on the outside, but how about checking the locking lugs and the camming surfaces. These are almost always plenty hard enough for cartridges designed for the action.

Just my 2 cents.
Andy

I think the more proper way to state that is that they are ALMOST always hard enough for the powders they were designed to work with. Two key elements here: 1) ALMOST and 2) Powders they were designed for. Today's powders burn entirely different that those the actions were designed for.

Since it is higly impractical to test the lug seats you have two choices as I see it; 1) have them all properly hardened 2) roll the dice.

Given the expense of a custom rifle it makes little or no sense to skip the carburizing in my opinion.

I figure after spending the time to true everything up, and build it into a single square bridge I'd rather spend the few bucks to be better safe than sorry. The biggest problem I'm running into right now, although I haven't been looking terribly hard is finding a good action (preferably VZ24) that hasen't been drilled and tapped that someone is willing to part with for what I'm willing to pay. Heck even just not drilled and tapped is bad enough.

I do have another question. At the time I have the action heat treated, I'm assuming it's case hardening, will there be any problem with having it color cased?

You might give Turnbulls or ColorCase Co. a call...color casehardening is a form of heat treatment. It would seem to me that if you heat up an action enough to color case, you've just undone the heat treatment??? I hear Turnbulls uses a lower temp...I've had several actions done by them and it would appear the case is quite thin...whereas Color Case Co really develops a deep case, but I've never used them for bolt actions...best to call...

quote:

finding a good action (preferably VZ24) that hasen't been drilled and tapped that someone is willing to part with for what I'm willing to pay.

and what are you willing to pay? I might be able to help you.

I was looking to find a couple VZ24 action that had not been drilled and tapped for somewhere in the $150 each neighborhood. I know complete VZ24 rifles were going for slightly less than that not to long ago. currently I'm out of the market for them at least for a couple months as I just ran accross a deal on a decent SxS 20g that I have been looking at for the better part of the last 2 years.

quote:

I was looking to find a couple VZ24 action that had not been drilled and tapped for somewhere in the $150 each neighborhood. I know complete VZ24 rifles were going for slightly less than that not to long ago.

There was a time when a new M-70 sold for $137.50 too.

I haven't seen a decent WWII M-98 full length rifle of German or Czech manfacture for less than $250 for quite a while now.

If you want to gamble on the year you can get a M-98 barreled action for $150 plus shipping and commission from an add in shotgun news but you might get a 1944-1945 model and you'll shell out $225 for it in the end.

metal treaters inc. St. Paul Minesota.

metaltreaters.com

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
metal treaters inc. St. Paul Minesota.

metaltreaters.com

Maybe you have had success with these folks, but I have received warped actions back from them.

Rolltop,

I guess your right about the price increase. Most of the good 98 actions have already come into the country so the price is bound to go up. I just didn't figure it would do so as drasticly as it has in the past few years. I'll restart the action fund, and start looking again when I get another 6-700 in the fund. I know I'll be looking for at least 2 and possibly 4 actions. I guess the 2 complete VZ24 rifles I have seen listed at $300, and $385 were actually not bad. It seems that most of those that I have found are all matching serial numbers, and being sold as colector type guns. I know I'm only planning to keep the reciever, bolt, and firing pin assembly. Everything else will be replaced, and those 3 items will be getting significantly modified.

Thanks for the info, and getting me a better perspective of what these things are going for now. Looks like I've passed up on a few decent deals in this regard.

In the past couple months I purchased from a fellow member on this site a VZ24 action w/ bolt handle modified nicely, left hand low mount FN safety lever, bottom metal and untapped to boot. Price was 200.00 which I thought was a good buy. 'smith I work with a lot won't use the action unless it RC's at 20 plus and this one did over that limit. As for the hardening process/heat treat, I spoke with Turnbull about doing a color/case project and was told that they do not do the receivers due to warpage?? Believe the heat level was on the order of above 1200 + Deg. Fh.
I do see from time to time some of the "new" Mauser 98's and other actions offered w/ CCH, and wonder how they accomplish this with warpage?? So far on similar projects have settled for the other parts, bottom metal, bolt shroud, bases and rings, etc. to be treated and do think it would really be a striking piece if the entire action were treated. Can't have everything I guess. I hear mixed reviews on the re-hardening process and why is this done if the action meets the std. to build on to start with??

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
I hear mixed reviews on the re-hardening process and why is this done if the action meets the std. to build on to start with??

If you set the standard low enough it will never be REQUIRED.

Hello z1r,
Good point, but wouldn't imagine there would be too high of a std., but what would be the minimum std. regarding hardness/treating, etc.??
My information rearding hardness, supposed strength, is derived from folks at Douglas and have always been told they will not barrel an action, Mauser 98 I am speaking of, that does not equal or exceed a score of 20. Never went into the details as to why, but they have done more than a fair number of jobs and must have a reason for that range. Latest one I am just now finishing up is barreled for 300 Win. Mag. which would not be considered a mild or low pressure caliber. Just curious.

I might be showing my ignorance here, but I have a question. I have always understood the the mausers were casehardened actions (hard on the outside and softer on the inside)which makes it very difficult to test the surface hardness. IF this is true then the steel isn't a real high carbon heat treatable steel. So, how is the action re-heatreated? Is it recased or is it possible to through harden the Mausers? Did the Mausers change steel types somewhere along the line from the late 1800's to the mid 1900's? Seems like to me they would have changed steels to a through hardening steel somewhere along the line since this was the technology.

The M98 steels are low carbon like our 1020 [.20 % carbon] .They are case hardened by adding carbon [carburizing] and hardened. The center remains soft as there isn't enough carbon to harden .The outside hardens because of it's higher carbon content. You can re- heat treat the action to make up for insufficient carbon added in the original carburizing [war time QC !] Careful control of carbon addition and hardening and tempering details result in a proper hard [but not too hard] surface and soft center. It's not only the wartime problem.Using modern high pressure catridges or for those who have the obsession to load it hot may cause problem with any of them. The cost of re HT'ing is small considering all the costs of making a rifle.

it appears to be a matter of religion...

some folks swear by it, some swear AT it, and some folks make reasonable decisions.

I tink that a vz24 is probbly fine, and any 50's onward, except spainish one, are probably fine.

a 1909? yeah, it would go be hardened, if a 50K+ loading was put in it.

A full blown custom?? that's not even a question, as 50-75 bucks probably isn't 5% of that number..

Heatreat or not, does it not all really depend on how hard you intend to stoke the old boiler?
A guy who loads his cartridge below 50k on a non re-HT mauser, is probably smarter than the guy who tries to push his reHeated mauser/pre64 toward 60k.
If one cannot sensibly dicipline their loads, no heatreat is going to save you or your rifle.
A question,
This is an FN 8x57 waiting for some work, If tubed up to 270win or 30-06, would you feel safe putting factory rounds through it?
Or do you feel it needs HT?
What does todays HT offer over its original HT?...is the process better now than what it was in 1950s'?


I remember some good discussion on color-case, from memory CC weakens the metal structure of a receiver,and repeated CC will continue to progressively weaken it.
Give me a good rust blue anyday,+ its a million miles more durable.

quote:

If tubed up to 270win or 30-06, would you feel safe putting factory rounds through it?
Or do you feel it needs HT?
What does todays HT offer over its original HT?...is the process better now than what it was in 1950s'?

It is my understanding that Mauser actions made after about 1924 were case hardened the same as you would get if you sent the action to a professional heat treater today.

Personally, I'd shoot .270 factory ammo in that gun all day long without worrys.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:
It is my understanding that Mauser actions made after about 1924 were case hardened the same as you would get if you sent the action to a professional heat treater today.

Nope, not true.

I have reworked for personal use and experiments about 50 of the 1903 Turkish, VZ24, and a few other Mauser actions, but I have never had any of them heat treated.

I have overloaded in work ups until the primer fell out in 343, 7mm Mauser, 308, 30-06, and 8x57.

In the 1889 7.65x53mm case head design made of hardened cartridge brass, long brass life is up to 62kpsi, the threshold of short case life is 65 kpsi, primers fall out on the first firing at 78 kpsi, and primer pockets double in diameter at 90 kpsi.

The 6mmBR or 6.5x47mm cases may look the same head design, but with CCI450 small magnum primers and a bushed firing pin of .062", on can get long brass life at very high pressures.

I have never got any lug set back in a work up, but I have blown up a number of Mausers in other experiments.

A 1903 Turkish Maser action [Built in Oberndorf between 1903 and 1905], with a Hart 308 barrel, 47.2 gr H335, 220 gr Hornady round nose jammed into the lands, the case head failed, blew a piece off the bolt face, broke the extractor collar, broke the extractor, sent a piece of the extractor flying, set back the receiver .006", set forward the bolt .002", and swaged in the bolt bore so the bolt would no longer fit in that action.

A CZ527 had the same failure as the 1903 Turk with a similar overload but different cartridge.

I have converted a VZ24 to 300 Win Mag, but I have never got the primer to fall out of that cartridge.


What does it all mean?
If your gunsmith tells you that your Mauser action needs heat treat to be strong, I would suspect he either believes the stuff in Kuhnhausen's Mauser book or has a house payment to make.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
I have reworked for personal use and experiments about 50 of the 1903 Turkish, VZ24, and a few other Mauser actions, but I have never had any of them heat treated.

I have overloaded in work ups until the primer fell out in 343, 7mm Mauser, 308, 30-06, and 8x57.

In the 1889 7.65x53mm case head design made of hardened cartridge brass, long brass life is up to 62kpsi, the threshold of short case life is 65 kpsi, primers fall out on the first firing at 78 kpsi, and primer pockets double in diameter at 90 kpsi.

The 6mmBR or 6.5x47mm cases may look the same head design, but with CCI450 small magnum primers and a bushed firing pin of .062", on can get long brass life at very high pressures.

I have never got any lug set back in a work up, but I have blown up a number of Mausers in other experiments.

A 1903 Turkish Maser action [Built in Oberndorf between 1903 and 1905], with a Hart 308 barrel, 47.2 gr H335, 220 gr Hornady round nose jammed into the lands, the case head failed, blew a piece off the bolt face, broke the extractor collar, broke the extractor, sent a piece of the extractor flying, set back the receiver .006", set forward the bolt .002", and swaged in the bolt bore so the bolt would no longer fit in that action.

A CZ527 had the same failure as the 1903 Turk with a similar overload but different cartridge.

I have converted a VZ24 to 300 Win Mag, but I have never got the primer to fall out of that cartridge.


What does it all mean?
If your gunsmith tells you that your Mauser action needs heat treat to be strong, I would suspect he either believes the stuff in Kuhnhausen's Mauser book or has a house payment to make.

Or perhaps he actually knows what setback looks like.

I run into people all the time who claim never to have seen setback. That could be, especially if they've never bothered to look for it. I've seen it a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
I have reworked for personal use and experiments about 50 of the 1903 Turkish, VZ24, and a few other Mauser actions, but I have never had any of them heat treated.

I have overloaded in work ups until the primer fell out in 343, 7mm Mauser, 308, 30-06, and 8x57.

In the 1889 7.65x53mm case head design made of hardened cartridge brass, long brass life is up to 62kpsi, the threshold of short case life is 65 kpsi, primers fall out on the first firing at 78 kpsi, and primer pockets double in diameter at 90 kpsi.

The 6mmBR or 6.5x47mm cases may look the same head design, but with CCI450 small magnum primers and a bushed firing pin of .062", on can get long brass life at very high pressures.

I have never got any lug set back in a work up, but I have blown up a number of Mausers in other experiments.

A 1903 Turkish Maser action [Built in Oberndorf between 1903 and 1905], with a Hart 308 barrel, 47.2 gr H335, 220 gr Hornady round nose jammed into the lands, the case head failed, blew a piece off the bolt face, broke the extractor collar, broke the extractor, sent a piece of the extractor flying, set back the receiver .006", set forward the bolt .002", and swaged in the bolt bore so the bolt would no longer fit in that action.

A CZ527 had the same failure as the 1903 Turk with a similar overload but different cartridge.

I have converted a VZ24 to 300 Win Mag, but I have never got the primer to fall out of that cartridge.


What does it all mean?
If your gunsmith tells you that your Mauser action needs heat treat to be strong, I would suspect he either believes the stuff in Kuhnhausen's Mauser book or has a house payment to make.

Or perhaps he actually knows what setback looks like.

I run into people all the time who claim never to have seen setback. That could be, especially if they've never bothered to look for it. I've seen it a lot.

I measure with headspace gauges.


I measure with depth michrometers.

When I cut the threads and chamber, I measure the headspace.
After experiments, I measure the headspace.

At work, I have been designing controlled experiments for 30 years.
I give technicians explicit instructions to keep experiments under control, traceable, and repeatable.
Most technicians never understand what that means, so I must sit and watch over them.

One reason for reheatreating is if the crest is ground off the receiver ring you will be grinding through most of the casehardening. The only hardening left would be on the inside of the ring. This could create an undesirable condition and leave the action less strong than it was originally, especially if the crest was stamped really deep. To me this would create the need for rehardening the action to modern standards, whatever those are. I have never checked an action for case depth but have checked other machine and gun parts and the case depth on those was not very deep. It's pretty hard to get a casehardened depth over .015 in most instances and grinding a crest off a receiver ring will go through that pretty quick. Does anyone know for sure what the case depth is on most Mauser actions?

Case hardening on reworked actions for corrosion resistance is legitimate.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:


I measure with headspace gauges.


I measure with depth michrometers.

When I cut the threads and chamber, I measure the headspace.
After experiments, I measure the headspace.

Since you cannot measure setback with headspace gauges I seriously doubt that you know what it is at all.

And since you cannot spell micrometer it leaves me to wonder if you actually know how to use one.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:
It is my understanding that Mauser actions made after about 1924 were case hardened the same as you would get if you sent the action to a professional heat treater today.

Nope, not true.

Since you seem to know what is not true, perhaps you would like to inform us what is true.

I'm sure we all would like the education.

quote:

Originally posted by clowdis:
One reason for reheatreating is if the crest is ground off the receiver ring you will be grinding through most of the casehardening. The only hardening left would be on the inside of the ring. This could create an undesirable condition and leave the action less strong than it was originally, especially if the crest was stamped really deep. To me this would create the need for rehardening the action to modern standards, whatever those are. I have never checked an action for case depth but have checked other machine and gun parts and the case depth on those was not very deep. It's pretty hard to get a casehardened depth over .015 in most instances and grinding a crest off a receiver ring will go through that pretty quick. Does anyone know for sure what the case depth is on most Mauser actions?

I was of the understanding that hardening on old mausers is mainly for wear resistance(repeated sliding contact zones), and that the design of the action is what one must primarily rely on for safety and strength.
In fact, is not a mauser that is made too hard, more of a danger?(due to brittleness).
The orig. mauser design is to allow a receiver to give in some(setback)but hold together, rather that totally snaping in critical areas,sending out dangerous HV parts/fragments.
I prefer a ruined rifle over a ruined body and life. Every design still has it limits however.
If the outside case hardening on the mauser front ring happens to be of great importance to strength, then Id hate to think of how many custom mausers have been and continue to be built, without recasehardening after grinding the front ring,and I suppose when we square up the lug abutements and bolt lugs, we are removing case hardening, and those areas should rightfully be subject to re-HT?

Subject to reHT ? Of course.The benefit of case hardening is the tough core which should prevent catastrophic failure just like case hardened roller bearing s! Some of the Mausers were quite hard on the surface for excellent wear resistance.

quote:

: Some of the Mausers were quite hard on the surface for excellent wear resistance.

and sometimes too hard.

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/m98boltFailure1.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltFailure2.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltfailure4.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltFailure5.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltFailure6.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

: Some of the Mausers were quite hard on the surface for excellent wear resistance.

and sometimes too hard.

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/m98boltFailure1.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltFailure2.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltfailure4.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltFailure5.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd349/traxar1/M98boltFailure6.jpg

And the point is?

Neither you nor anyone else knew what caused the failure of this FN bolt It happened to be used in a .264 Magnum and no one knew how it was handled nor did anyone know if the bolt had been re heattreated.

The photos are interesting but are meaningless to the discussion of heat treating Mauser receivers or even bolts.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:
And the point is?
Neither you nor anyone else knew what caused the failure of this FN bolt It happened to be used in a .264 Magnum and no one knew how it was handled nor did anyone know if the bolt had been re heattreated.

The photos are interesting but are meaningless to the discussion of heat treating Mauser receivers or even bolts.

Who said it has to refer directly to a ReHT? it may well relate to original HT.
Would that be any less important?
The point is, I value Darcy Echols experienced view more than many others. He has a high work ethic, and the fact that he worked in with one of the most indepth knowledgable men on mausers,the late great Tom Burgess, adds creedence to his professional view.
If you find the photos and the resultant Mr.Echols comment on them, meaningless to the discussion of HT on mausers, so be it, however others here may not feel the same way.
Echols post:
"I have seen the same happen on a FN in our area. The action was "new" and the caliber was also 264. The bolt face failed in the same manner. Later inspection found the bolt body over all was way to hard when tested on the "C" scale. The owner developed his maximum in the winter and then shot the same loads in late June. After the failure I was asked to check the action for lug-seat set back and found none nor any other damage to the action or barrel. A retro-fit bolt was installed and properly head spaced and he is shooting the rifle to this day. He no longer tries to drive 140gr bullets at 3300fps. I have seen more heat treat issues with FN actions than any other comercial 98. I have even seen some in the white actions to be completely soft. You should check every action and bolt before you begin a project. This could save you some hassle."

Here is the thread,FN bolt failure: https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/287107765

That fracture is not consistant with a case hardened part .It appears through hardened ! A case hardened fracture will have different texture near the outside than on the inside .

The rifle pictured by Trax appears to be a commercial series 300 FN. It is my understanding these are made of alloy steel and are hardened throughout. They were introduced shortly after WW2 and several years later the series 400 was made. The 400 had an adjustable trigger with a side safety and a streamlined bolt sleeve. Many magnum calibers were made on these actions, some by major companys like Colt, H&R, Browning. In the late 50's they retailed for something like $68. Those were the "good old days"........ Bill

Bill Leeper seems to post at benchrest, but not as much here anymore. I miss Bill's posts here.

thread at benchrest central on re heat treating surplus Mauser actions

Cracked Mauser action on Gunbroker

“The front of the ejection port on right and left side of the action has a small crack from a wrench when removing the barrel. This could easily be fixed by a good gunsmithâ€

Tnekkcc::

Does a Spanish Mauser receiver often get split while trying to remove the original barrel?

I think expecting a gunsmith to repair such a crack is a joke.

My uncle told me when I first started welding that it was really irritating to get a spark in your ear, because in addition to the pain you could hear it sizzle. But until it actually happened to me I couldn't imagine it.

point?

just because one person hasn't seen something doesn't mean it isn't possible and doesn't happen. and when you are talking about something as innexpensive (relationally) as carbon addition (because that is properly what you are having done if you have it done right) then I think its like that condom we kept in our back pockets as teenagers. were we likely to use it? most of us no. but it was better safe than sorry.

Tom started gunsmithing when he was 14, yes, 14, by making parts for gunsmiths while in a machinists school. D'Arcy Echols has been a full time gunsmith, and nothing else, since he went to school right out of high school. both of them said it should be done. also one or the other or both have pointed out that annealing the action first makes machining easier and goes through less cutters. overall intelligent I think.

Trax about the brittleness and them blowing up. yes you wouldn't want to have a throug hardened mauser probably. I think the problem of brittleness and actions really failing was with the early number springfields that were heat treated by eyesight judging color, horribly unreliable especially in buildings that relied heavily on natural lighting and therefor were affected by weather

(gonna throw a plea out here to Z1R who's memory should be fresher or who has closer access to notes, to correct me or augment things I miss)

I believe the carbon in these was actually "burned" off and there is no way to salvage them. mausers however were as said softer inside hard outside, the problem was not just with the amount of carburization on the outside or case but the depth of it as well. Pacific Metallurgy worked closely with Tom Burgess in coming up with their process and he got them to where they were doing it very well, I am not at home and would take me a while to find the actual numbers anyways, but the depth of the carburization is deeper than originals.

as far as blowing up, the gas handling features of the mausers were more design that hardening. I never heard mention that the heat treat design was purposed towards the withstanding of cartridge failures. rather the design, i.e. the left thumb cut which is also a gas escape, the third locking lug, the large gas deflecting flange (sometimes when guys replace their cocking piece and shroud the new shroud is more "streamlined" but less effective in actually deflecting gases if needed).


Red
PS
spark in the ear- you can hear it sizzle by the way which is a bit interesting, I personally disagree with my uncle and find the worst to be when you're stupid enough to wear tennis shoes rather than leather and a spark burns through the nylon and get stuck to the bottom of a toe, just can't get that damn shoe off fast enough