For walnut, or any suitable non-laminate wood for a gunstock, does it make a real difference how it's dried, whether using a solor kiln, or just air dried over several years?

Part 2 of question: If the blank is solor kiln dried, does it still need to be air dried for a period of time before turning?

Thanks

I am not expert on anything, however everyone that I have talked to that was or claimed to be knowledgeable in the stock making trade said to air dry blanks only.

Just straight air dry only. The general concensous is that a blank needs to stabilze for a minimum of 5 years AFTER it has dried.

Also, folks look for some specific moisture content to say it is "dry." This depends on where you are. Some areas will have wood at 6% and soem at 15%, so there is no magical number that tells you it is dry. These will be dry and stable moisture contents in that specific environment. For this reason, if you buy a dried and cured blank, you need to let it set a while in your new location before working it.

One of the problems has been that sometimes a stock blank ,2-2 1/2" thick is put in a kiln with 1" material and dried to a 1" schedule !! That will cause problems..Marc is right .One of the rifles I made in gunsmithing school in CO warped a bit when moved to NY.This despite polyurethane finish inside and out. There are technical reasons which I don't remember offhand ,that make kiln dried better if done properly.

Mete-

you bring up another excellent point. You cannot truly "seal" a piece of wood. If anyone wants to test it themselves, take a piece of wood that has stabilized to your environment. Thoroughly coat it with epoxy or whatever you think would stop ALL the water from migrating in or out. Put it in a heated box at low humidity and watch the wood shrink.

Found this one out the hard way. And then to prove just how bone-headed and dense I am, screwed up a second stock the exact same way! My biggets fear is that I will do it a third time.

If there is a piece of metal on the wood (steel butt plates and grip caps in my cases) you can really see how much the wood is shrinking, even though it has thick coats of sealer on it. The second stock had a bodacious coat of epoxy on top of the wood, and I really did think it would stop water migration.

Hell, even plastic bottles are broken down and mix with their contents.

Every single professional stock maker I know, to a man and woman, say they will only work on air dried wood. The kiln dried stuff is supposed to work less well and be more chippy. Also, I have heard from several stock makers that kiln dried wood will absorb and lose water easier than an air dried blank.

The topic of warped blanks comes up fairly regularly, and I always tell folks that if the blank has stabilized and is not still doing the hoakie pokie, then I would use it. THe wood is in its "happy place." yes, you can straighten out the blank, but you are telling a dead peice of wood to do the exact opposite of what Mother Nature commanded it to do. I don't know about yall. but I am 5' 10", 145#, and Mother Nature can totally kick my ass. My philosophy is to learn to work with her in this instance, as opposed to thumbing my nose at her.

One thing non-stockmakers or serious gun afficiandos don't get is that a stock has about the most demanding job of any piece of wood in the world. They have to operate at sea level, over 20,000', rain forests, deserts, mountains, -40°F, +130°F, 100% humidity, 2% humidity, etc, etc. AND...they have to do this while maintaining the tightest physical tolerances of any piece of wood in the world. Gunstocks are inletted to within just a very, very few thousandths of an inch. And they have to hold that dimension in all of the above environments.

I remember back when I was in graduate school there was one particular undergrad who worked for me. I taught him to weld, make knives, and a lot of other things like that. he was eager to learn, but had no intrest in long guns. He was over at my shop one night watching me inlet a barreled action and he got the idea to build himself a custom guitar. I knew nothingin of guitars, but did know how to work wood and metal. Wound up being a great guitar, but there is also a funny story with it. He was down in the shool'c machine shop one day getting ready deep hole drill his blanl. A professor was down there doing soemthing, so he had to tell my little buddy what all he was doing wrong. He kept spouting off how he had a PhD and had worked with wood for 30 years. Said he was one of the few who could hold wood to a 1/32 tolerance, most folks could not, and it was "impossible" to work closer than that. He kept spouting off his credentials and finally got out of my buddy's hair, who proceeded to deep drill the blank. He calle dme when he got home and was laughing at what the professor said.

He wanted the bozo to go to my shop and see how close you can work wood, and then have it stay at those tight dimensions. I told him I would wring his neck if he broght that blowhard anywhere near my shop. We had a good laugh and both commented on how so amny of the "highly educated" have to throw out a red herring, i.e. their "credentials" and other amusing letters in front of or behind their namde. I am firmly a believer that the world will see who you are and what you know on your actions. If you have to tell people you are great or know something, then you are not or you don't.

I simply wish people in general would understand that Air dried simply means it has reached an equilibrium point give a set of parameters . Temp Humidity vary every where in the world so when is it Air Dried ??. Kiln drying doesn't hurt Stock blanks one bit !. Then allow to stabilize for your area or ( Air Dry ). The point is to rid the wood of as much moisture as necessary so it's stable . Key word " Stable " .

It's a " Proven fact " Kiln drying wood is not only faster but does so with less degrade than simple Air Drying .

Merry Christmas ...

I appreciate all opinions, knowledge, etc. and thank you gentlemen for the lively and informative debate.

Take a look at this blank, then continue please.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=88327212

KB

Not for my $450.
Check under the various suppliers for gunstock blanks.
http://home.pipeline.com/%7Eshootzg/Gunsmithing%20resources.html

i strongly prefer air dried, and for my personal stocks, they will be tempered at least a year in my attic if they are kiln dried

ditto what paul said, not my 450

You could do it a third way , treat it with salt to draw out the moisture like Browning did in the late '60s !!! Now I remember one of the benefits to kiln drying .With something like pine kiln drying sets the sap due to the heat.If you then paint the wood the sap won't bleed through the paint.I'll see if I can find more info.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I appreciate all opinions, knowledge, etc. and thank you gentlemen for the lively and informative debate.

Take a look at this blank, then continue please.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=88327212

KB

That is a $100 blank IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by ElCaballero:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I appreciate all opinions, knowledge, etc. and thank you gentlemen for the lively and informative debate.

Take a look at this blank, then continue please.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=88327212

KB

That is a $100 blank IMHO.

I don't if I would say $100 blank but it is definately not a $450 blank.

Calico Walnut is another good source. I have purchased from them, Dresslers, Old Tree and Presliks. I just depends on who has what I am looking for a the time. Of all I have used Dresslers is usually the highest price but have a very good selection.

crl

Kiln drying does not mean excessive or any heat has to be used . In an evaporative kiln also known as an E Back unit ,it's done with little heat and a moisture evacuation drying process .
Safer quicker than Salt as salt will react with tannins in some woods as Iron does in others .

Think of a very powerful Air Conditioner in a small room it removes moisture while cooling the Air it's dehumidifying the Air .

jeffeosso: Why the Attic ? Because it's warmer and drier ?. Attic Temps can reach excessive Heat in many cases over 160 F. . Again is that Air Dried /.

Wood by nature moves for ever as it absorbs moisture and losses moisture , expansion contraction . The Key is Minimal movements . Completely Sealing the Stock after it's been worked and dried is one of the most IMPORTANT parts of the process .

Remember Oil finishes allow the wood to breathe there for subject to more movement than say a Urethane , Epoxy finish or a laminated stock .

I agree it's not worth my $ 450.00 either , looks to be about half of that price to be fair.
I like to know the complete Size of the Blank before purchasing any .

Happy Holidays ALL . ...

Dr.K, the means not a serious method. Owners of Brownings found their guns rusting as the salt leached out ....There is another method which works well but is not cost effective. It's like a giant microwave. You can screw up air dry just as you can screw up kiln dry !!

ElCabellero is correct, that is a $100 blank, especially in black walnut. Here is a much prettier one for $115.

Claro Blank

This subject is just to tempting to let go without a reply

The best stock blanks, bar non, that I have ever used were those imported to Keith Stiegall in Gunnison Colorado. These blanks were imported from France from Jean Charles Teysseier (sp?). Teysseier ran a number of company's all having to do with the use of high grade walnut and the making of high grade items for this walnut. He bought it where he could find it Spain, Italy, Iran, Turkey, etc. Once cut it was then steamed to induce moister until the wood was completely saturated. At which stage in the process is unclear, planked or cut into rough stock blank shapes I do not know, then and only then the wood was dried with a kiln in a manner that has not been equaled in the gun stock trade. In short it was far from air dried but what ever the Kiln process it was the finest cutting French walnut I have ever worked. I have made many stocks from and machined many hundreds of these Teysseier blanks over the last 25 years and can never remember a problem of any kind with any one of them. Zero, Zip !!!!!!

By far the most unpredictable stock blanks I have bought and used were grown and cut on our own west coast or Turkey. These by the way were "air dried to perfection and guaranteed to be ready for stocking" by the sellers. Why is this ? I haven't a clue except to say that the process for drying for those particular blanks was not anywhere near as beneficial as that Kiln process done in France. Gene Simillion also believes this is true and has used a pile of Teysseier walnut as well. He actually got to sit down for an afternoon and talk with Jean Charles Teysseier about his furniture company and stock blank production. Gene said Jean Charles would not discuss the drying method as it was a trade secret, I am sadly inclined to agree. Jerry Fisher, remember him ? has also made this exact same comment to me a number of times in the past.

It's no secret that I use a pantograph to machine my stocks. I always cut them oversize to begin with and then allow it stress relieve and stabilize in this over sized state. By doing so I am not at the complete mercy of a stock blank that has it's mojo working. If you don't think that "dry" wood moves around I can tell you that while I may be prone to fib on occasion, an indicator does not. I have seen a rifle blank move + or - .125 in one direction or another in the machined oversized stage. If I suspect a blank may give me trouble I will machine it +. 250 per side and let in hang for 30 days before I machine it again + .125 per side and then do the final machine inletting a couple day later. I remember making stocks from the blank that would stress relieve over night and leave me with a huge gap on one whole side of the stock that was not there at the end of the working day the night before. I have also had them do the same just by applying the first coat of stock sealer, All air dried wood. I have worked blanks that I have owned for 15 years that walked on me, all air dried I'm afraid. Using a Pantograph as described has reduced the wood mambo to the occasional controllable quiver.

Is this a direct slap in the face for west coast wood dealers ? Nope, not hardly, I will gladly buy it where I can find it and it's getter harder to find it. The cost to buy, remove, cut into planks, store and dry one of these trees nowadays is a huge investment. Often times the tree will yield little more than lower grade blanks at best. Grown side by side not all trees will produce the same figure or number of exhibition blanks that we all like to use. With that type of financial outlay a wood dealer must try and sell his wood as soon as he can and still keep a clean continence. I have looked at allot of wood in my career, I have purchased it as singles and pallets and have been looked straight in the face and told "Yep she's as dry as a bone, cut it back in 67" as you stand there under the weight of a blank that is so wet it's just about ready to spontaneously leaf out before you very eyes.

The lack of truly well dried wood such as those that I've used from Teysseier is an unfortunate shame. Oh for the old days. Give me a good old kiln dried blank over air dried anytime, as long as it from Teysseier.


Have a Nice Day !

Thanks for the enlightenment !! BTW, in the old days people who used applewood for furniture would first soak the wood in a pond for one year, then air dry it !

I used to buy copies of this book and hand them out, but no one ever read them.

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-Craftsmans-Gui...nology/dp/1561583588

What does it all mean?
It doesn't matter how you get a piece of wood to a certain dryness, as long as you don't get checks or worry about how much time or money it takes to get there.

You guys are reminding me why, for many years, I have been using synthetic, or laminate stocks. I have spent a lot of attention to detail with the metal, but not so much with fancy walnut. Somehow, when the barreled action is ready, I don't want to wait too long before shooting it.

But, I have plenty of rifles with synthetic stocks, and have started admiring the walnut lately. I dunno, maybe it's best to not think about it too much, and just do it.

I just bought a factory rifle, walnut/blued, and it's amazing the little transition time from out of the box to actually shooting it, without having to wait on the gunsmith. Somehow I had forgotten about that benefit, and the darn thing looks good and shoots accurately too. Imagine that.

But truthfully, I couldn't resist, and sent it to my gunsmith anyway for bedding, and sight removal, and a trigger job.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:

The best stock blanks, bar non, that I have ever used were those imported to Keith Stiegall in Gunnison Colorado. These blanks were imported from France from Jean Charles Teysseier.

As a follow up to DArcy's post...(I hope he doesn't mind)...I wanted to share few pictures of the type of fine Teyssier Walnut I believe he was speaking about.

Pictured below is a beautiful old Mauser stocked by Keith with a select piece of his Teyssier's many years ago...

JC

Here is a question I have wondered about over the years-

What would happen to a blank that was "vacuum dried"?

Where it is put in a chamber and a vacuum pulled, which of course will eventually vaporize the moisture (depending on the degree of vacuum, all the moisture).

I suppose you could even control the percentage by only pulling a certain vacuum. I have heard of some drying kilns that use partial vacuum but never have had any personal experience with anything remotely related to it.

Can anyone comment on this?

P.S. jcchart- That is a very nice rifle!

Mark,
There is a small mill by me that has a kiln that pulled a vacuum while heating the wood. I think it was made by Woodmizer. The owner made flooring and cabinets and was happy with it. I do think said he air dryed for a year before using it.

A few of the company's I worked for sold Butts and Crotches too Jean Charles Teysseier company .

I've seen some of the raw blanks , they definitely knew how to handle wood from start too finish .

Re soaking or submersing fresh cut logs has been around for a long time .Think of a saw mill with ponds or rain bird sprinklers going on the logs in the seasoning yard . Prior to being sent into the milling operation .

, If some one tells you that AIR DRIED is the Only way for a stock blank they're not wrong just incorrect .

I'll attempt to explain . When Any piece of wood is Kiln Dried it's brought down to 6.5% MC.
Now what happens once it leaves the Kiln ?. It starts to AIR STABILIZE or as so many misuse the term air dry !. It actually is absorbing moisture which it NEEDS to a degree !. Not beyond that measure .

Placing a piece of wood in the old shed or garage isn't a Bad thing it's simply OLD SCHOOL !.
ASTM , Forest Products lab. Madison WI, NHFMA , NHWA , CSIRO , in Australia will ALL confirm what I'm saying .

Simply put People who Mill Lumber for a Living know the very best method of drying wood with the least amount of degrade . Which is in a Evaporative Kiln or E Back Unit PERIOD .

Check the facts . Old Air Dried methods very best case scenario 64% with a certain amount of Shake, Twist, warp collapse occurring with in that %'s !.

Best case scenario with an E back unit . 96% yield with less than 4% defect included .

Wood needs a certain degree of moisture BEFORE it's considered Usable and stable 6.5 -12 % is the acceptable standard for hard woods !.

Soft woods are completely different animals I've seen building studs exceed 40% MC. that's another story .

IMO the very best case is KILN DRIED BLANKS , allowed to AIR STABILIZE for 6 months under " Normal circumstances 50-90Degrees 30-45 % RH

Or use Kiln Dried Blanks right away and SEAL THEM !.
Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...