The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Pre-64 Model 70 action blueprinting?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Baxter Thank you for sharing a "few" of the groups a M 70 can do. The Pictures say it all. Hal | |||
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Forgive my ignorance - or my poor reading if someone has already covered this - but I can't see how blueprinting can be done unless a rifle (or motor) is still being made or was made with excess meat left on it. If too much steel has already been milled away, how can you sensibly put it back? Though loose double guns might be fixed by doing this, I'm yet to hear of it being done with bolt-actions. (If it can, could my Breda MS with set-back be repaired?) In regard to smoothing an action, would that not usually mean removing metal from one even if its dimensions already corresponded exactly with the blueprints? | |||
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In this particular instance, the term "blueprinting" is being misused. A more accurate term might be "optimized", or the old standby, "trued". Regards, Bill. | |||
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The action surfaces are re-machined until they are "true". Yes, you're removing material but since the barrel will be fit to the new dimensions, it works. No, you wouldn't want to recut the action threads and try to install a pre-fit or factory barrel. That is, of course, if you want the rifle to shoot tiny groups which are apparently irrelevant in the field... D'Arcy built me a rifle (not an M70) that shoots really, really, really tiny groups. I made an extremely difficult shot with it from a stable field position on an elk hunt in AZ. Did the fact that it shot bugholes matter? Maybe, but it gave me their confidence to take the shot knowing that the rifle and optic were up for it. | |||
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Always happy to take any of those anchor weights or trash heap Model 70's off your hands and will eat my usual disposal fee!  On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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Sorry,I tried to clean up some typo's and re-posted the whole bloody thing. This is why I'm not allowed to try and post pics. Sambar rather than beating a dead horse I'd buy a copy of Centerfire Rifle Accuracy by one of your countryman W. Hambly Clark Jr. His process is discussed in depth and the entire book is great reference. Bill Clark is a gifted smith and the book a wealth of information on this subject. Truing up a receiver and bolt, re-vamping the ignition system, fitting and chambering a barrel with accuracy in mind, eliminating bedding issues, eliminating scope mount and optical issues, tuning a load for the barrel, it's a big handful of operations when it's all said and done. In my limited experience no single process is going to impact the end results solely. Do you need a 1/2" rifle to kill a deer out to 400 yards or a Buffalo at 10 yards ? Do you need an F-350 ? | |||
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Lotsa folks talk about one tenth .0001" and have no concept of how small a measurement that is. Consider this, a particle of dust measures .0002" two tenths. Machining to tolerances of .0001" is done in a temperature controlled environment and requires specialized tools to measure, i.e. a Co-ordinate Measuring Machine or laser. | |||
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For some reason, Baxter's pictures never show up for me. | |||
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1/2 MOA....? Just wonder how many times the stars simply line up, with just pain old careful work When I spent three years in a large shop in WI, 5-6 gunsmiths would turn out such rifles on a surprising regular basis. We faced the action, lapped the lugs and used Kreiger or Obermeyer barrels . We had mostly JGS reamers. and made no attempt at handloading. I don't condemn removing every possible unknown, but......Maybe just lucky? | |||
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I think that might be an SSL cerificate I need to update - I have added Click for Pic links above the images - see if you can click to see them now. | |||
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Yup, that worked! Thanks | |||
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I tend to agree. 1/2 MOA is usually achievable by facing the action, lapping the lugs, using a quality barrel and reamer, and (critically) properly bedding the stock. When I'm asked on a normal re-barrel job if blueprinting is worth it, my answer is "maybe, maybe not". On a custom rifle though, I don't see any downside and only upside. It's ruling out some variables and only takes around 4-5 hours. When investing 150-200 hours into the project it would seem like a no brainer.
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Thanks D'Arcy, As it happens I've read much of William's book. My particular interest was/is the mounting of scopes and I've often quoted him on that. The irony I see is that if everyone took the care he does in setting up scopes, the fool's paradise of constantly centred reticles would be completely unnecessary. In fact it would then be fractionally easier to mount reticle-movement scopes because the centrality could be eyeballed in a moment (though my buddy turns the scope around and around just to be sure). I am surprised he made no observation on why scopes are so easily bent, though. My belief is that 1" American and Japanese scopes are wispy because the makers kept that diameter when they changed from steel. The Europeans' scopes, however, were already 0.6mm thicker in steel and generally had more diameter plus a rail added when made with dural. This is why I support the use of 30mm tubes despite their bulk - some of the extra scope is thicker metal, not just space for reticle adjustment. The answer to both issues, I think, is Burris's Signature Rings concept. Not only do they take the stress off the tube but their eccentric inserts can get the scope mounted straight when the bases are out of alignment. As to your questions, no, though extra accuracy might help if ever I tried to shoot deer at 400 yards. In 4wds I make do with Suzuki Grand Vitaras and so far neither of the ones I've had have have proved too small or let me down in 16 years. | |||
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Baxter Thanks for sharing photos of the results of people doing the impossible. Keep up the GREAT work. Hal | |||
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I have have experienced the same results as John S. with the same gun builders he listed above , D’Arcy, Gene, and Mark. Pretty sure the small consistent groups are not from luck or guesswork. These guys don’t settle for mediocrity or “good enough for hunting “ type attitudes . They build precision type rifles that have much of the same techniques used by the top shooters in the world. 4WD | |||
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From my own perspective, I know that minimising error, runout etc at every opportunity consistently pays dividends. IF the operator is capable and running suitable machines/tooling, a trued M70 is well worth the outlay every time. However, I also see a lot of people promising repeatable precision and tiny tolerances, and often they are running worn, flogged out or else cheap import lathes that come fitted with spindle bearings that cost about as much as a restaurant meal. Machines like that, they are mostly a joke - ask anyone competent at grinding and scraping ways, rebuilding precision spindles etc. Go pull the saddle down, cross slide and tool slide and get scraping and making new gibs. Best look at the bed and headstock before all that effort. Most people don't even know or understand the resolution of their indicators, effects of sag etc if applicable, nor good metrology practices, what errors they induce and how they stack up yet they quote grinding tolerances that seasoned grinder hands struggle to keep on that Cinci Monoset in a STP room. Mr Echols: Thanks for giving Bill the exposure you have. I am sure it was greatly appreciated by him and also helped sell a bunch more books overseas. I greatly admire your dedication to precision as it applies to your work, and the fact you also write about it. Last week I got news that Bill has just copped 3 operations in about a month. Judging by a scorecard I got sent he's still shooting better in his ninth decade than most ever will. What a champ. | |||
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We tend to get spoiled. Jack O Conner talked about a 1 MOA rifle as the holly grail. That was the standard to achieve for decades. Better every thing has shrunk that standard. Better bullets, barrels, machining better optic's and the list goes on. I have a couple .5 or better rifles. They make my 1 moa rifles look sick. My 1.5 rifles look horrible. My 1.5 to 2 inch rifle absolutely pitiful. But I take my almost 80 year 2 inch old Savage 99 hunting and kill more deer them most. It is about picking the right tool for the job and knowing how to use it. Would I mind having all super accurate rifles no. But when it comes to killing running deer in thick cover. I do not think any of them well preform better then the 99. I hunted with a lot of rifles. I keep grabbing 99 for local deer hunting. | |||
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This is a Pre-War M70 that I blueprinted. The barrel is a Brux #2 24". Caliber 30-06, Mcmillan stock pillar bedded in Marine-Tex, Murphy 20 moa pic rail pinned with 8x40 screws, cheap vortex scope $350.00. The Brux barrel gives great speeds running 56gr of IMR-4350 and a 180gr accubond into sub moa. last thing I killed with it was a coyote at 675, so yea, totally not worth the effort to improve the accuracy potential of it. 2860 fps on a 180gr, with Winchester brass. I had the action kicking around here for years so I figured, may as well do something with it and with a busy schedule I don't a lot of time to dump into a wood gun for a personal rifle. It does what I want it to and does it well. 5 rounds into about a 1/2 inch works for me. I'd rather have blueprinted than not have it.            | |||
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What's the purpose of trimming the recoil lug farther than the action face? | |||
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The front face of the recoil lug is machined with 2-1/2 degree angle. For easy removal from the stock bedding. It's bedded to the front face of the recoil lug, no tolerance at the front face. I know some say they won't shoot well with the front face in contact, but what really makes the difference is does front face contact impede the receiver in any way from making all the way down into the bed without stress, that is what is really important as I see it. If the front face was straight, then yes, relieve it with tape at bedding or scrape it out after bedding. Receivers with sandwich lugs, tape 'em. Integral lugs, machine them, while you have ahold of it in the machine, best time to do it and it's easy. | |||
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When you face off the receiver ring face, you would need to cut the recoil lug back anyway, and it would look funny if the lug was protruding forward, farther than the ring. Hence, you would cut the lug back even more. Makes things cleaner. And it would be, receiver face. And since were posted at the same time, I see that he tapered the lug on the front as well. | |||
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Thanks to you both, makes sense. | |||
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tHE TRUTH AFTER MY 89 YEARS, BLUEPRINTING IS ABSOLUTE BS..i HAVE SEEN BENCHRESTER BUY 20 BARRELS TO WIN MATCHES, AS THATS THE SECRET THEY SAY, AND bLUEPRINTING IS IS A SHAM. iM A HUNTER SO ITS NOT MY CUP OF SOTOL!! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Well Ray you’re almost correct No winning bench rest competitors are using 98’s or 70’s. I’d wager few are using Rem XB’s today They however are using a dedicated bench rest receiver that are machined to minimal tolerances at birth Tony Boyer has quite a few barrels fit before a match season for he and his wife. Or at least he use to and would shoot each one looking for the best two For that years season He also wrote a great book on the subject maybe 12 years ago, great read. You might want to get a copy | |||
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Ray still hunts some with his 25-35, but I'll venture he has never won a single match with it. | |||
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Depending on what match your talking about. If the match is killing game he most likely won many. | |||
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Bet heed won a mess of turkeys at the county fair shoot wit that ole shootin iron! Hip | |||
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