The discussion has been great so far. So, the real question of the day is which is better for barbequeing goat, walnut or birch?

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The discussion has been great so far. So, the real question of the day is which is better for barbequeing goat, walnut or birch?

KB

It depends on if the goat was shot with a Krieger barrel.....or an A&B barrel

Jd,
I never attempted to refute your welding opinion, go back and check the BH thread and you will see that I actually encouraged your striving for quality FP welds.
At the same time your striving for the perfect weld is no more or less important than those who choose to properly spt a mauser.
A few hrs cost to do so is not so lop sided as you make out, when one considers its relative to the complete cost of a top flight rifle and the few hundred hrs than can be involved in its build.
Some people would question why a person wouldnt do so in the thorough build process.
Ive only recall seeing one photo example of your complete custom BA rifle work, IIC, it still has the agricultural military BM & cheaper less refined Warne QD rings?, none the less it helps me somewhat understand your methods of cost saving and standard of custom, and why the cost of spt a mauser might not represent value to you.

what you value....




what some other folk value.....

Kevin.
He didn't get my goat as I still have all 4 in the pasture. I actually drove 40 miles round trip to buy my Wife Churches Chicken. She was happy that I did that and you know, that is all that matters to me at the present. I do have a rather large pit behind my shop and it sees a young goat a couple times a year.
If you haven't tried it you're missing a treat.
Butch

trax
What does your work look like?

Well my machining skill/experience is more limited to aeronautics and high speed marine diesel industry, But if you want to compare, id say it leans notably more toward the standard of an Blackburn or Echols BM unit than a FN miltary BM unit.

Some old, inaccurate wood-stocked Mausers:

quote:

Truvelo's barrel steel has been on the soft side like 23 Rockwell C. I believe hammer-forged barrels are much harder, but not sure by how much. Perhaps someone can shed some more technical detail on this issue. I can image that the different type of steels can play a major role, as companies use different steels.

Anybody out there to throw some light on this?
It is relevant in terms of throat longivity.

Warrior

Trax, is that an axample of your work? Does that rifle even belong to you?

It's a good-looker all right, all edges sharp and all flats flat. And it has all the visible features of the latest fashion craze, the little PC 'uniform' of some modern customs. You know, the politically-correct features like expensive custom bottom metal that costs more than the action, beautifully sculptured scope mounts that won't allow field replacement after an accident, you know, thinks like that.

Altogether a spectacular-appearing rifle and I'm sure that the owner (whoever he/she is) is justifiably proud and happy. I know that I would be!

Different strokes. I'd be proud to own such a rifle but it's not exactly what I'd want for myself as my favorite arm. It's a matter of taste and my taste runs more to practicality than following fashion rules laid down by others.

I use my rifles hard, or at least I used to, and so I like to have at least one backup sighting system instantly available. The beautifully-sculptured mounts shown in your photo would be completely out of place on any of my hunting rifles, those mounts are suitable for varminters and casual day trips but not any extended hunts in rough country or bad weather.

My rifle in your photo was built over 20 years ago when intermediate-length bottom metal was not readily available. I like the intermediate-length Mausers and have done several different-type adaptations for their bottom metal, that was one of them. I happen to like the rifle OK and am still hunting with it, sorry you think it's unsuitable but I ain't gonna lose any sleep ovet that!

You can disparage my taste and the quality of my work all you want, but that doesn't make my facts and opinions wrong.
Regards, Joe

Why in the world would you want to "waste" money on something as silly and inconsequential as a damed barrel when you could use the saved money to get some really kool bottom metal!

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Why in the world would you want to "waste" money on something as silly and inconsequential as a damed barrel when you could use the saved money to get some really kool bottom metal!

Yeah, you can buy 4 or 5 A&B barrels for the price of one of those kool bottom metals.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Why in the world would you want to "waste" money on something as silly and inconsequential as a damed barrel when you could use the saved money to get some really kool bottom metal!

Good one!

In my case it's also because I personally can't make a barrel out of a bar but (even) I CAN make a hinged floorplate if I'm forced to do it.(grin)

And, human nature being what it is, we gotta remember that 99% of us are mainly blowing smoke. Most, the vast majority of us on this site, will never be able to really take advantage of all these cool little bells & whistles 'cause we don't hunt these rifles very much. Or very hard.

Yep, it seems to me that most of the satisfaction of owning a custom rifle these days lies mainly in the braggin' rights to our fellow enthusiasts. And, as we all know, braggin' rights depend largely upon the majority's idea of fashion and the current craze of the time, and whether YOUR particular item or appearance is Politically Correct or not.

Basically, what I've come to call 'cookie-cutter rifles' for the most part.

Forrest and some others are a little different in that they aren't scared to follow their own ideas of what's desirable, witness his use of a low-power scope on his latest little varminter. He wasn't afraid to use such an inexpensive and low-power glass and it made his little rifle VERY appealing to me. If he had mounted (still YET one more!) big honkin' variable then it would have made it just another kinda ho-hum build, but the use of the small scope really made a difference IMO.

IOW don't do something just because everyone else is ooh-ing and aah-ing over it; do it because either you personally like it done that way or because that way makes for a better result in some tangible fashion. JMO.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Well my machining skill/experience is more limited to aeronautics and high speed marine diesel industry, But if you want to compare, id say it leans notably more toward the standard of an Blackburn or Echols BM unit than a FN miltary BM unit.

In other words the only workmanship you know is looking at pictures and writing checks. Or maybe just looking at pictures?

quote:

If he had mounted (still YET one more!) big honkin' variable

JD it isn't cool to disparage those big honking German Hubble boat anchor clones....

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
.. those mounts are suitable for varminters and casual day trips but not any extended hunts in rough country or bad weather.

You need to contact Mr .Echols and the owners of his rifles,some which hunt all over the world in all conditions, to inform them that the mount system is unsuitable.
...while you have his ear, also inform him that his process of SPT mauser actions, is waste of time and money, if he disagrees with you, get Butch to back you up....

quote:

My rifle in your photo was built over 20 years ago when intermediate-length bottom metal was not readily available

this rifles HQ BM was also not readily available, the talented smith dedicated himself to creating it.

JD doesn't need any backing up. He has chewed you up pretty well. Are the photos you have been posting ones that you built or commissioned?
Butch

Only 2 more points:

1.If you can't switch your scope quickly, how are you gonna handle the situation if (when) it's dropped or fogs up? Or when conditions dictate iron sights?

2.I like to air-skin goats, makes it LOTS easier and less chance of tainting the meat too. Works OK on deer too but usually no air compressor down in the swamps.(grin)
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

If he had mounted (still YET one more!) big honkin' variable

JD it isn't cool to disparage those big honking German Hubble boat anchor clones....

You're right, I musta lost my head there for a moment! It certainly wasn't very PC of me, was it?

I just simply don't know HOW I'm gonna be able to hold my head up in polite society now! Why, I can't afford to have even ONE of those big ones without having to spend a fortune on (high, awkward) mounts and still get a third eyebrow when I shoot the rifle!

Oh, woe is me! What WILL I do?

(snap of the fingers) By George, I think I've GOT it! I'll simply spend $30K on a rifle that has only one sighting system and one sight for that system and then take it to Alaska or Africa; I'll bet that the game will be so impressed that they'll simply give up and fall down dead whenever they see how 'special' I am and how much I paid for my special rifle!


Of course this is real life and I'm on Social Security and a miniscule pension so I'm not likely to spend $30K on ANYTHING any time soon. But that merely encourages me to try to do things myself instead of purchasing them.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
JD doesn't need any backing up. He has chewed you up pretty well.

Not really, so far he has made claims that I refuted his idea of FP welds on bolt handles, when the thread on such clearly shows my posts supporting people who strive to high levels of work, some how he does not want to address or ackowledge his false claim.
So far he has defended his own level/grade of work, then says the efforts that a number of well regarded smiths go to on buiding custom mausers, are not worth the effort or money, or not suitable for how and where the owners hunt.

You have not expressed objection to Steeles views and ignorance, so I gather you agree with him.
but you prefer to avoid any scrutinizing about you having a recoil lug welded to your receiver.
Was it his idea you followed, are they nuclear grade welds?

Trax,
Answer my question.
Butch

quote:

looking at pictures and writing checks.

I wonder if the custom smiths here find fault with such a thing...

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

looking at pictures and writing checks.

I wonder if the custom smiths here find fault with such a thing...

Everyone has a boss...$$$

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Trax,
Answer my question.
Butch

First, I dont take orders from people on the internet, if you kindly ask, I will answer,
but only after you decide to give a clear decent answer on what your issues are with WL barrels.....


Currently from my perspective; Im aware of several talented Smiths who are experiencing good long term growing success/careers building fine quality mausers that involve highly dedicated,thorough and detailed efforts to achieve, without complaint from a growing base of satisfied customers,usually there is more envy than criticism from folk....however, according to some relative unknow less talented less dedicated types, those efforts are viewed as overpriced and unnecessary. Unfortunately those with that view dont share anywhere near the same level of well earned depth of success or reputation, and can only show what they achieved 20yrs ago, fine be happy with what you have and try to let those who currently want,appreciate and can afford better[and the smiths who create it], be free of your judgement & condemnation.
If anyone has issues with what those talented smiths go to effort to create and what they charge the customer,dont express it to me cause I dont give one ounce of crapola about what you think. Instead of hiding behind the keyboard, have the balls to call those smiths or meet them at the next show they exhibit and tell them, and maybe also discuss how you got to where you are and how they got to where they are in the industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
usually there is more envy than criticism from folk....however, according to some relative unknow less talented less dedicated types, those efforts are viewed as overpriced and unnecessary. Unfortunately those with that view dont share anywhere near the same level of well earned depth of success or reputation, and can only show what they achieved 20yrs ago, fine be happy with what you have and try to let those who currently want,appreciate and can afford better[and the smiths who create it], be free of your judgement & condemnation.
If anyone has issues with what those talented smiths go to effort to create and what they charge the customer,dont express it to me cause I dont give one ounce of crapola about what you think. Instead of hiding behind the keyboard, have the balls to call those smiths or meet them at the next show they exhibit and tell them, and maybe also discuss how you got to where you are and how they got to where they are in the industry.

Trax, I don't have any problem AT ALL with any of the experts you favor, or much of their work for that matter. It's almost always beautiful and very well done. Just because it's not necessarily done to my taste doesn't mean that it's inferior, just not something that I'd buy for myself.

No, any slight problem I've experienced here is due to you and your puerile attempts to bait me, apparently in a vain attempt to showcase your own knowledge and expertise.

You imply that I'm relatively unknown, less talented, less dedicated, less succesful and with less reputation than the smiths you admire. Your words.

I agree, completely. And you forgot to add that I'm less experienced as well!

But as I've pointed out before, that doesn't make my facts and opinions wrong.

I don't smith for my living and I'm not trying to sell anything so I'm not in any kind of $ competition here, just trying to exchange info with nice folks. If you don't like me or my info then simply put me on 'ignore'. If you just wanta stir the pot causing hate & discontent, why don't YOU come to face ME, up close and personal-like? I'm beginning to think I'd enjoy that.

You kinda remind me of the yapping little mutt hanging around the big bulldogs agitating 2 of them, jumping up & down and saying, "Let's you and him FIGHT!" Well, you probably need to scuttle back under the porch with your mother.
Regards, Joe

There are a lot of good barrels which have the potential to deliver sub MOA groups like kreiger.....Bartliens, Rock Creek , Obermyer Broughton etc etc, but you need to remember you can have the best barrels/components, but if there put together in a poor fashion, the accuracey will be much the same....accuracey is a combination of things comming together!, not just barrel quality...sorry for stating the obvious!

HAHAHAHAHA!Now you are dictating terms to me.
HAHAHAHAHA!
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
usually there is more envy than criticism from folk....however, according to some relative unknow less talented less dedicated types, those efforts are viewed as overpriced and unnecessary. Unfortunately those with that view dont share anywhere near the same level of well earned depth of success or reputation, and can only show what they achieved 20yrs ago, fine be happy with what you have and try to let those who currently want,appreciate and can afford better[and the smiths who create it], be free of your judgement & condemnation.
If anyone has issues with what those talented smiths go to effort to create and what they charge the customer,dont express it to me cause I dont give one ounce of crapola about what you think. Instead of hiding behind the keyboard, have the balls to call those smiths or meet them at the next show they exhibit and tell them, and maybe also discuss how you got to where you are and how they got to where they are in the industry.

Trax, I don't have any problem AT ALL with any of the experts you favor, or much of their work for that matter. It's almost always beautiful and very well done. Just because it's not necessarily done to my taste doesn't mean that it's inferior, just not something that I'd buy for myself.

No, any slight problem I've experienced here is due to you and your puerile attempts to bait me, apparently in a vain attempt to showcase your own knowledge and expertise.

You imply that I'm relatively unknown, less talented, less dedicated, less succesful and with less reputation than the smiths you admire. Your words.

I agree, completely. And you forgot to add that I'm less experienced as well!

But as I've pointed out before, that doesn't make my facts and opinions wrong.

I don't smith for my living and I'm not trying to sell anything so I'm not in any kind of $ competition here, just trying to exchange info with nice folks. If you don't like me or my info then simply put me on 'ignore'. If you just wanta stir the pot causing hate & discontent, why don't YOU come to face ME, up close and personal-like? I'm beginning to think I'd enjoy that.

You kinda remind me of the yapping little mutt hanging around the big bulldogs agitating 2 of them, jumping up & down and saying, "Let's you and him FIGHT!" Well, you probably need to scuttle back under the porch with your mother.
Regards, Joe

That about says it all, here and J.D's last few posts stated exactly what I also think about many of the contemporary custom rifles being currently built. They are fabulous examples of superb crafstmanship and are a joy to behold, but, I would not /will not buy one as they are not "field-practical" in BC, Alaska, the Yukon, NWT and other remote, rugged areas for daily use.

I could quite easily "cash out" the 35 big game rifles in my safes and have 3-4 top gorgeous customs built for me. I had an Al Beisen O'Connor-style P-64 Fwt.-.270 in '68, age 22 and thought I was quite the lad. I sold it with no regrets, after a little use in the rugged, wet and densely forested mountains of the Kootenays where I lived.

I bought a truly gorgeous Dakota-76-.338WM in 1994 and hunted it in various BC locales, then, just had Ralf Martini install custom irons and a Micky "Hill Country" stock on it for backpack and horseback trips in these same areas as function is what appeals to me.

So, although J.D. is an ornery geezer and can pizz me off right royally as I am even ornerier, I find his points here to be very sound and gotta agree.

As to custom bottom metal, I actually prefer some slightly re-worked factory units to much of the custom stuff and use Talleys and Leupie QR and QRW mounts by choice and with total satisfaction. "Horses for courses" and a shopbuilt plain working rifle is as "custom" as a gleaming creation shown at one of those custom gun extravaganzas I want to but never seem to attend.

quote:

I bought a truly gorgeous Dakota-76-.338WM

Could we see this beauty?

Thanks
Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
HAHAHAHAHA!Now you are dictating terms to me.
HAHAHAHAHA!
Butch

Unlike you Butch, I dont issued orders to answer questions, , Im willing to answer your questions, when you exhibit the abilty to decently answer questions I have asked you in previous threads concerning your issues with WL barrels,seems reasonable to me.
The balls entirely in your court.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

..It's a good-looker all right, all edges sharp and all flats flat. And it has all the visible features of the latest fashion craze, the little PC 'uniform' of some modern customs. You know, the politically-correct features like expensive custom bottom metal that costs more than the action....

Just to educate you, such custom BM that you refer to as the "latest fashion craze", was available at least 20+ yrs ago from Blackburn,Grisel, Tom Burgess & others.[I purchased mine in 1990, after seeing them used on rifle builds] Mr.Echols version is very much a refined rendition of the Burgess.
Prior to that smiths were regularly modifying & improving 1909 BM, in the persuit of quality and refinement.
I would not describe current new age BM as an expensive politically correct fashion craze, but rather an evolving of quality, workmanship & design that has come to established itself as an appreciated custom rifle industry std.
In regards to your statement about modern BM costing more than the action, probably true when purchasing say an old unworked unmodified 1909argie, but no so if one commissioned someone to build a new modern manufacture M98.

Now, Is there anything else you care to tell us that further demonstrates your level of knowledge & perspective of the custom rifle trade?

I dont issued orders to answer questions[/quote]

You don't?
Butch

Thats right Butch I dont. Quote me where I have ordered you.
I simply stated I will answer your questions when you answer ones I asked previous to yours, Its not an order.I have not commanded you to do so, if you cant of your own free will bring yourself answer a question, so be it, I couldnt care less.

Well quit bringing it up. I usually do a search if I'm looking for something.

Butch

Fine, Im confident your knowledge on LW is about a good as JDs on quality BM.
Nothing really worth asking or searching for.
If you ever exhibit your welded recoil lug rifle at a show, might be nice to have the metal out of the stock for all to to fully view and appreciate.
Would not have been so bad had you sent it out to someone proper to have neat surgical grade seam welds done, instead of something that looks like it was done by an old one eyed corn farmer who found it in his to do box whilst welding up his plough blades.

adios....

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Fine, Im confident your knowledge on LW is about a good as JDs on quality BM.
Nothing really worth asking or searching for.
If you ever exhibit your welded recoil lug rifle at a show, might be nice to have the metal out of the stock for all to to fully view and appreciate.

adios....

Trax, I'm sure that some of us would also really like to see some of YOUR work!

How about it? You've disparaged our work, so how about showing us some of yours?

Heck, how about just showing us a photo of a rifle that REALLY BELONGS TO YOU?

If you haven't either made or bought something you think is better then how can you expect anyone to pay any attention AT ALL to your opinion?

IOW if you can't run with the big dogs then get back under the porch with your mama.
Hugs & kisses, Joe

Butch & JD,

do I detect some faint tinge of sarcasm in these last few posts?

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

Trax, ... how about just showing us a photo of a rifle that REALLY BELONGS TO YOU?

I could show you my rifles, but maybe its better to take the advice of your buddy Butch.....

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Well quit bringing it up. I usually do a search if I'm looking for something.

Butch

However you may be dissapointed to find a mauser having what you refer to as the "latest fashion craze" Blackburn BM and 3pos.safety shroud of the 1980s'... as far as im aware such type products[and better] are still strongly represented in the custom rifle industry, and not leaving us anytime soon.

According to you JD, People who have bothered to create improved modern manufacture versions of the Oberndorf or Argentine 1909 type BM appear to be creating a latest fashion craze ultra fancy and pricey product.
However the creators likely view is that custom smiths were already regularly modifying/improving exhisting orig. 1909 Argentine BM....so the idea was to create something which conveniently included those improvements & refinements and more. So in the process of creating from scratch,a new improved version of an 80yr old design,they used better materials, & whilst doing the necessary CNC programing,took oportunity to refine the geometry for better cartridge handling, improve draught angles for stocking, tighter tolerances, as well as some tasteful asthetic geometric variation & refinement.
All seems like what I would call an evolving of intelligent design, rather than purely the latest fashion craze.

You might say that Rich.
Butch

Of all of the tubes I own 80% are Krierger including all but 1 competition tube which is a Hart. Have a few from Mr North, Hart and Lilja but my first choice without exception is a Krieger both for SS and CM.

Yes---even use them on the 98 builds when possible.

So, Trax, I guess your last post means that you can't make a rifle or even buy a nice one.

I still recommend air-skinning goats, but please do it well in advance of consumption of adult beverages. No point in taking extra precautions if you're just gonna stumble around and let the hair touch the meat anyway!
Regards, Joe