Some believe that the fuss that some go to accurizing/trueing a mauser is a waste of money,cause accuracy increases are minimal.
If that be the case, does one really benefit by fitting BR quality barrels like Krieger?
so save yourself $250 by not single pointing your mauser and fit a Shilen or McGowen and be done with it, right?

I do not know a/b Kriegers per se, but the custom being built for me right now is getting a Shilen as per the smith's recommendation which is fine w/ me. I hope it shoots as well as my other Shilens.

Duane uses Krieger barrels on his customs, that is all the recommendation I need.

If you are building a custom the barrel is not a big deal money wise. I would use what in my mind is the best and spend the extra $50-$75 if it is the expensive one.
Butch

The primary reason for building, buying, or owning a custom rifle is pride of ownership. Such pride comes from a number of sources but one source is knowing that the rifle is an example of fine workmanship and quality materials. Since Krieger barrels are a fine example of quality workmanship and material, using one would not be a waste of money in any build. It might make no difference from a performance standpoint but a good barrel is a thing to admire and that's the custom rifle's primary function; to be admired. Regards, Bill.

IMO, if Kriegers are a waste of money on a good custom Mauser, then Liljas, etc. are also a waste of money.

However, I really think I can tell enough difference to appreciate really accurate barrels, even on a Mauser.

Here are some samples of the results to appreciate. These were shot with my 30-06 FN Mauser which has a Lilja that's at least 15 yesrs old. This rifle has been very accurate from the beginning, and continues to be the standard by which I measure all the other rifles I have, as far as consistant accuracy, with a variety of bullets. I have one other rifle with a Lilja, and it's just as accurate, but it's on a Winchester 70.

Yes, that bottom right group is three bullets. These are all at 100yds. These groups may not impress you much, but the scope I'm using is a 2x7 Leupold VXII shotgun scope, with the heavy duplex, and this rifle will shoot better than I can shoot as evidenced by that tiny group in the bottom right where I held especially steady. I can shoot groups like the others with it all the time. If I put a higher magnification scope on it, with normal cross hairs, and really hunkered down on the sandbags, I could shoot lots of quarter size clusters with it.



KB

Krieger barrels are well represented in the centerfire benchrest matchs. In the group of the top 20 shooters, more than half of the shooters use Krieger barrels.
Most of the top SS barrel makers charge about the same amount of $$$$ for their barrels.

I have/had several Model 98 Mauser sporters with Douglas and Hart barrels, and with the right loads, they all shoot 3 shots in 1/2", or less, at 100 yards. I have no problem using high end barrels on M-98's because I get good accuracy with them.

Imported barrels in SA are scarce and our local industry has also shrunk with the closure of 2 primary barrel makers, namely Musgrave and the commercial small arms division of Vektor. That leaves essentially only Truvelo that is making buttoned barrels. The 2 former companies used the hammer-forged method. I believe that Truvelo recently aquired the hammer-forging machine from Vector that was moth-balled. Truvelo's barrel steel has been on the soft side like 23 Rockwell C. I believe hammer-forged barrels are much harder, but not sure by how much. Perhaps someone can shed some more technical detail on this issue. I can image that the different type of steels can play a major role, as companies use different steels.

Hammer forging is used by most of the major firearms manufacturers like Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Sako and Steyr, to name just a few. It is used to cope with mass produced production.

Safari & Outdoor now brings in the Bartlein barrel for benchrest shooters. Sabi Arms import Walther barrels at a reasonable price for their hunting rifles. I am not sure who else bring in other barrel makes. But Krieger is certainly a top-line product and at $250 I would buy it immediately. Both these makers use the cut-rifle process that is supposed to be superior from a stress free point of view and only the best quality steel is being used - its not run of the mill stuff.

Our options are truly limited in SA in comparison with the USA.

Could someone (perhaps gun makers) elaborate on who else is importing custom barrels into SA.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

Here are some samples of the results to appreciate. These were shot with my 30-06 FN Mauser which has a Lilja that's at least 15 yesrs old. This rifle has been very accurate from the beginning, and continues to be the standard by which I measure all the other rifles I have, as far as consistant accuracy, with a variety of bullets. I have one other rifle with a Lilja, and it's just as accurate, but it's on a Winchester 70.

Yes, that bottom right group is three bullets. These are all at 100yds. These groups may not impress you much, but the scope I'm using is a 2x7 Leupold VXII shotgun scope, with the heavy duplex, and this rifle will shoot better than I can shoot as evidenced by that tiny group in the bottom right where I held especially steady. I can shoot groups like the others with it all the time. If I put a higher magnification scope on it, with normal cross hairs, and really hunkered down on the sandbags, I could shoot lots of quarter size clusters with it.



KB

Wow, I guess I should feel pretty good about my results W/a re-crowned & re-contoured 8X57IS military take-off barrel printing these groups @ 100yds.

Nothing else has been done to the barrel, no chamber or throat work.

Well there you go. A guy could find old mil-surp take-offs for $20 - $40, or use Shaw or A&B barrels and be happy.

I'll bet a guy could visit just about any gunsmith and rake through his take-off pile, and find all kinds of treasures, such as shot out BR barrels. Set them back past the throat errosion, turn and crown, and shoot some more. Then there's factory barrel take-offs. I've had several factory Rugers that would shoot 3" groups, at best, and when replaced with custom barrel, those take-off Ruger barrels have sold on GB for $75 - $100 range. I'm sure the buyer got what he paid for, but perhaps not what he was hopeing for.

Once, I bought a new, unknown maker, pre-chambered, threaded, commercial barrel in 8x57 from an estate sale, cheap, and the darn thing shoots very well.

One could save a lot of time and money by crusing the pawn shops. There are lots of old mil-surps and low priced factory treasures there. I'm absolutely sure that some of them will shoot 1" groups easily.

There are plenty of options to satisfy everyone. If your pleasure is working through maybe twenty barrels (or pawn shops) to find one hidden treasure, go for it. If one likes to maybe have the best chance of it being right the first time, especially after paying top dollar to a gunsmith for installation, I kinda lean towards PacNors, Liljas, Kriegers, Shilens, Douglas, LW, etc.

Maybe I'm missing out of all the fun of the treasure hunt, on the cheap.

When I lived back East, in a former life, I knew a fellow who went to Atlantic City often, to party and gamble. Mostly when he got back he was rather quiet, saying at the most he did alright. But sometimes he would talk about his "big" winnings. Seemed to me he conveniently forgot about all those losses, and only chose to remember the occasional win.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:


Maybe I'm missing out of all the fun of the treasure hunt, on the cheap.

When I lived back East, in a former life, I knew a fellow who went to Atlantic City often, to party and gamble. Mostly when he got back he was rather quiet, saying at the most he did alright. But sometimes he would talk about his "big" winnings. Seemed to me he conveniently forgot about all those losses, and only chose to remember the occasional win.

KB

For some of us, "on the cheap" is our only option.

I for one did not benefit from the George W. Bush economy.

The barrel in question was one of two that I bought several years ago from Numrich as "very good to excellent".

I was as advertised, had a bore that looked like it had been lapped, a polished chamber & a short throat that allows a COAL of only 3.132" W/the bullets used to shoot those groups.

I returened the other "not so very good to excellent" barrel & the subsequent replacements several times since they were paying the frieght, trying to get another like it. They finally got fed up W/me & sent me a sewer pipe barrel. I returned that one too & got my money back.

The point is, I knew as soon as I saw the inside of that barrel that it had promise. It looks like I was right.

I had Dennis Olsen turn down the countour to a constant radius sweep from the last step tp remove the least amount of material possible..



As far as spending a lot of $$$$ for a premium grade barrel on a Mauser? If I had the $$$ & didn't have to scrimp somewhere else, like the wood, I would probably do it.

And yes, the barrel was about $40 & another $60 to have it turned down. A friend did the recessed flat crown job for free.

quote:

Are Kriegers Awaste of money on Custom mausers?

Only the guy paying the bill can make that call.

Its always good to put top quality components in a rifle.

quote:

I for one did not benefit from the George W. Bush economy.

Just a question and certainly off-topic, but are you prospering now?

I use the best I can afford at the time. Used to be 'select match air-gauged pick-of-the-litter' but the Clinton/Bush/Obama economy has cost me A LOT and so these days I hafta scrimp.

Do I keep my eyes peeled for a good used barrel? You bet. It's amazing how lots of folks will have a perfectly good barrel replaced in order to get a new (to them anyway) cartridge to play with. I like early pre-64 M70 and Rem 721/722 and 1903/03A3 Springfield barrels, they all have given me good performance in the past.

My very first high-power high-pressure reline job 35 years ago used a shot-out varminter bbl for the liner. The 219 Donaldson bore had holes and pits and cavities all through the length of it and the throat was completely gone for over an inch. I cut off the chamber, turned down the outside and used it to line a #3 octagon 32-40 high wall barrel to 223 Rem. It's now a .75 MOA barrel and that's about as good as I've ever been able to get a high wall to shoot.

Yes, it's a .75 MOA barrel but looking down the bore will make ANYONE flinch, it looks like a muddy road even when it's been freshly cleaned.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

I for one did not benefit from the George W. Bush economy.

Just a question and certainly off-topic, but are you prospering now?

No, but I am not naive enough to think that nearly 30 years of inept out of control economic policies coupled W/deficit spending can be turned around in a few years.

Are you that naive?

BTW: We have only had 2 presidents that did not have a defecite when they left office.

Andrew Jackson was one of them.

I have seen many Kriegers in competition. They are great. I am someday going to get a nice cut rifled, chrome moly Krieger for my pre 64 Win 70 in 375 H&H which currently has a Douglas Stainless. That is going to be my special gun out of all of my guns, and it is going to wear a Krieger!

I would definitely use a Kreiger or other cut rifled barrel for a custom that would have integral features like a rib or F/R sight bases. Much less chance of internal stresses showing up when the profile ends up non-concentric. For a normal rebarrel, I don't think it makes any difference as long as a quality tube is used. It is false economy in my opinion to pay several hundred dollars to have a new barrel fit or complete rifle built and other work done and scrimp on the barrel to save $100. I spec Kreiger's because they are local, I know and compete with several of their employees, and I am confident that I am going to get a barrel that shoots great and cleans with minimal effort. Now, if I am doing the job for myself, I'll use less expensive tubes because my time is free to me and if I screw up, I've got to replace it.

The deal of the day:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti....aspx?Item=193893058

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:

quote:

Are Kriegers Awaste of money on Custom mausers?

Only the guy paying the bill can make that call.

I really should have titled the thread;

" What advantage[s] do Kriegers offer over less expensive barrels for custom mausers"

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
I really should have titled the thread;

" What advantage[s] do Kriegers offer over less expensive barrels for custom mausers"

For starters:

At least acceptable accuracy even in worst case
No surprises for the smith
Presumably good customer service if needed
Impeccable braggin' rights
Relatively modest cost increase when compared to the rest of the rifle.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me for the fellow who commissions his build rather than doing it himself. If you are paying for the labor then IMO you'd be foolish to scrimp on the barrel.

BTW the only Krieger currently in my stable is a 1.25 MOA barrel. They're mighty fine but not all are perfect.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Are you that naive?

Absolutely not... just thought a political statement in a gunsmithing post was, well, interesting to be honest!

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
So far Ive only heard that a Krieger gives a custom mauser more status, not necessarily any accuracy/performance advantage.

Uh, first turn your selective listening switch to off!

Now, with a premium barrel your odds of good accuracy are much increased, and the possibility of exceptional accuracy is real.

With the inexpensive, lesser quality barrels, the odds of satisfaction are greatly reduced. Sure, there are exceptions such as the mil-surp barrel mentioned above, and the pre-chambered & threaded barrel I mentioned. A guy has to be willing to throw money and/or time at it and take his chances.

Most gunsmiths, and all those that I know, are not willing to take chances on creating an unhappy customer, if it can be avoided through simply choosing a good quality barrel blank. I can certainly understand.

In the case of the new pre-chambered & threaded 8x57 Mauser barrel, the gunsmith cost to install is far less than starting with a blank, so I was willing to chance it on wasting money, and the bet paid off with a nice barrel for less money. I had also considered the source and inspected the barrel carefully and studied the contour, and decided that most likely it was not a Shaw or Adams & Bennet barrel. If I thought that, I would have just got rid of it. Since I provided the barrel, the gunsmith was not responsible for its quality. So the risk was mine.

Another example: Recently I went into a project without getting firm prices, and the final tab was rather spendy, by my standards. I doubt that the gunsmith would have even done the project had I not provided a high grade barrel for him to work with. But because the barrel suited him, the issue wasn't discussed. Of course, given the amount of money he charged me just to true the action, and chamber and install the barrel, I would have been a very unhappy customer had the rifle not been accurate. As it turned out, it's extremely accurate. (SAKO action BTW) There is no way I would have done that project without first being satisfied with the PROBABILITY of the barrel blank being a very, very good one.

KB

quote:

Now, with a premium barrel your odds of good accuracy is much increased

Ok, what is the realworld likelyhood Kriegers will outshoot Shilens on an custom M98 hunting rifle?

quote:

and the possibility of exceptional accuracy is real.

Im told the M98 is not conducive to exceptional accuracy even after some tuning, so how does a Krieger help in that dept?
The less expensive barrels offer all the accuracy capability that any mauser could realistically take advantage of, No?

remember, Im not attacking anyones choice to fit a Krieger or any other similarly or more expensive barrel.

OK, you are getting beyond my ability to provide a useful reply. Not being realy technical, my info is heavy on the subjective side.

My logic says to me that if a guy wants to use a 98 action thinking it's going to mediocre in accuracy anyway, then the compromise has already been accepted, and you might as well get an A&B barrel and be done with it.

If you are worried about the accuracy potential of a Mauser, then use anothe action.

Keep it simple and practical. If you ask enough questions, eventually you'll run out of answers, and have to wing it anyway.

Look at it this way:
I would rather the factors limiting potential accuracy be in the action, rather than have the potential limitations be in BOTH the action and the selected barrel. I have several Mausers and the accuracy has been good with most of them, enough so that I can blame those that don't shoot good enough on the barrel.

KB

quote:

If you are worried about the accuracy potential of a Mauser, then use anothe action.

Im not worried or complaining about the accuracy potential of the m98, the topic is asking what advantage does a Krieger offer to an M98 over the less expensive barrels.

The answer is: The probability of good accuracy is increased, thus helping to reduce the risk of spending the money on gunsmithing time to install a poorly shooting barrel, then going through the grief of discovering what is the problem.

It will more likely allow you to discover the full potential of a given action/stock/scope/trigger/bedding/trueing/ammo combo if one of the major variables, barrel quality, has been addressed from the get-go, as best as it can be.

KB

Next Question in this series: do you think it is worthwhile to spend the extra money for walnut when birch is available for about 1/10th the cost?

I have two Kriegers, four Liljas, three Badgers, a Douglas Premium Air-gauged, and a bunch of factory.

When I shoot the custom barrels I am confident that the rifle is going to group well.

There's a little pride factor involved as well.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Next Question in this series: do you think it is worthwhile to spend the extra money for walnut when birch is available for about 1/10th the cost?

Rich
DRSS

The walnut is worth the extra money only if the plans are to not paint the stock, otherwise the birch is great.

Of course, only quarter sawn, air dried for 12 years, in Arizona, Canadian birch, harvested in November, will suffice. It's knowing what's under that paint, that gives one a sense of pride.

KB

quote:

Ok, what is the realworld likelyhood Kriegers will outshoot Shilens on an custom M98 hunting rifle?

Probably a 50/50 shot that the Shilen will out-shoot the Krieger, but you are talking about two top tier barrels. Even Shilen's "Match Grade" barrels are darn good.

Not really a good comparison because the cost of a Shilen vs a Krieger is negligible ($240 for a hand lapped Shilen Chrome Moly and $285 for a similar Krieger). You could say the same thing about other top tier makers, they all make good barrels.

Put a Krieger against an A&B or Shaw barrel and I will bet on the Krieger shooting better, cleaning easier, being less finicky and having a relatively centered bore every time.

Well I must confess I not really concerned about the xtra cost of Krieger or whatever barrel one chooses,I was just waiting for responce from JD Steele on the subject,
i find it humorous that someone be so pedantic about full penetration nuclear grade BH welds, that are likely no more necessary to a good sound rifle build than SPthreading a mauser[which apparently, he is against for cost effectivness/minimal accuracy increase reasons] ,yet is for fitting a more expensive super premium BR grade barrel, that according to him, the receiver by nature cant take advantage of.


...anyway, ive had my fun for today.....

Why didn't you just say you wanted to ring JD's bell. You would be well served to heed his advice.
Butch

My first paragraph hints that i was attempting to ring his bell.
Steeles an intereting guy, on one hand he tells how he likes to strive,[I myself admire people who do] yet he will condemn or ridicule others who attempt to do the same.
Some folk insist on nuclear grade BH welds, others SPT of mausers, others welding recoil lugs to receivers,.. each to his own.
Since your into giving advice Butch, why dont you call Hartmann & Weiss and Ralf Martini and warn them about LW barrels,
Id mention it to Ralf myself next I speak with him, but you wont disclose to AR the issue you have with LW.

cheerio...

You're a trip Trax.maybe they know that a Mauser won't shoot so they save their pennies using the lovely Walther barrels.
How do you like that answer?
Butch

Butch, You mean to say JD Steele has already delivered his long awaited sage advice to Ralf,Hagn and Hartmann & Weiss about how to go about building mausers?.....
Maybe they know how to get a mauser to shoot, reason why they also fit CRBs' like Krieger and RKS.

I really don't have time for you and your littering the forum.I've got to cook anyway.
Butch

Got your goat Butch?

I myself love barbequed goat and hope that is how Butch is cooking it. Is especially good on the 4th of July. Seems to taste better, or at least be more fun to eat, on that day.

But since moving up here amongst the instigators of the War Against Northern Aggression, I have yet to meet anyone else who has even heard of BBQ'ing a goat on the 4th, much less actually having had it.

quote:

do you think it is worthwhile to spend the extra money for walnut when birch is available for about 1/10th the cost?

Yup....I wouldn't spend a dime on a custom gun unless it had some amount of fancy walnut in it....

Trax, you are obviously what my shooting group calls a 'special' person. As in 'special needs' person.

The difference is that full-pen welds take ~2-5 minutes longer on a bolt handle while truing & blueprinting a receiver takes several hours. YOU can pay or not pay as you see fit but the time/cost/benefit factor is obviously kinda lopsided; apparently kinda like what we jokingly call Your Reasoning Power.

I guess you were upset 'cause you couldn't logically refute my welding opinion, and this is your way of baiting me; fine, I took it as an opportunity to inform and become informed. That's why I'm here on this forum, to inform and be informed. It was an interesting question and I was glad of the opportunity to hear from others.
You be a good boy now, y'hear? Regards, Joe