Okay, I don't have an actual rifle in front of me, but I'm following some posters advice to look at and perhaps buy some used custom rifles as practice in order to determine what I really value before I commission one of my own.

There are some nice looking military 98 Mauser-based rifles out there that I'd like to try, but I have a question.

How can I (or a gunsmith) tell if that action has been carburized / heat treated?

I imagine if the lugs have been set back I could be pretty sure it wasn't, but the lack of that might just mean it hasn't been fired much.

So, how can we tell?

Unless it has been color casehardened you probably can't tell whether it has been rehardened or not. The owner certainly isn't going to let you file on it to check. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that if the crest hasn't been filed off the front ring it's probably got it's original heat treatment and it's probably OK. If the crest has gone I'd ask about whether or not it has been retreated and it's up to you whether or not to believe the owner.

If a person buy's a gun and isn't sure about it, they take it to a gunsmith. If a gunsmith encounters an action that he isn't sure of the heat treatment, then he sends or takes it to someone who specializes in that field. If I had any concerns I would seek the services of a metallurgist.

Same goes in the medical field. My primary physician, not well versed in urological matters referred me to a specialist, a Urologist. Too my surprise it was a female and she was beautiful and very sexy. She told me I had to stop masterbating. I asked her why? She said "Because I'm trying to examine you".

Anyone with a Rockwell hardness tester can tell you if the heat treatment is good. Having said that, only advanced machine shops and metallurgists will have them, maybe a few smiths. Most Mauser 98's that have not been re-heat treated will register around 20+or- on the "C" scale, which is quite soft. In re-heat treating, the goal is around 35-40 C. If the dealer would allow you to have it tested or you just have to have it and buy it without having it tested and discover that it's too soft. any good smith can remove the barrel and you can send the stripped receiver to a heat treater (there are a few that have been mentioned on this forum) and have it hardened. Mostly, they carburize them which is a surface hardening because there usually isn't enough carbon in the receiver metal to do a straight quench and draw. The bolts however, are carburized and very hard.

Thanks. It's a Jim Cloward DWM 1909, so I expect it is, but I thought I'd check.

Here's what I just bought:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...sp?hierarchyId=10473

Jim is a class act. I'd be comfortable with about anything he built.

Looks like he changed the large ring into a small ring, I don't see any step at the front ring?
Bob

If it's a 1909 Argentine action, they are usually very soft, & need re-heat treated. I have one that C-scaled only 2 ...... yes, 2. It was tested at Douglas Barrels, & Fred Dupoy (who recently retired from there after 40 years), told me that the hardest 1909 he'd ever seen only C-scaled in the low teens. So, I'd have it checked.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
Anyone with a Rockwell hardness tester can tell you if the heat treatment is good. Having said that, only advanced machine shops and metallurgists will have them, maybe a few smiths.

This is blatantly not true.....

The machine has to be able to read on the 15-N or 30-N scale as typical Rc testing will break through the case and give a very false reading. Most machine shops do not have such a tester and even fewer gun shops do!

Many Rockwell testers are set to delived a 150 HG load for the "C" scale.

Proper testing can be done where a person has a machine so set up and is versed in what he's doing.....we're checking for case hardening here. Take the action to a commercial heat treater where they do case hardening and ask for a reading and then to convert the reading to equivalent Rc scale.

For those that are still bewildered by all this heat treat discussion, I'd well advise to find a post WWII commercial mauser with which to get started.

Not only are there quite a few available but in the end they cost less than build from a Mil-surp action.

Another indicator a Mauser action has been heat treated is the presence of pin marks from the Rc tester tip - often located under the action in front of the mag cutout.

Unfortunately testing for hardness there won't yield anything usable.

Where should the indent be made ?

I have a couple of 1909's that industrial heat treat did back in the 90's that are punched there.

This heat treatment "problem" has come up so regularly that I think we should call it the "Ex Lax" subject

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
This heat treatment "problem" has come up so regularly that I think we should call it the "Ex Lax" subject

No s--t.

I doubt that anything new has been learned about heat treating actions and rifle action metalurgy since the 30s. There has apparantly been some things re-learned. Heat is the same now as it was in 1935. It's all about physics and chemestry. The metal composition in the old actions is what it is. Apparantly there is a big difference in the forged actions made by FN and CZ, etc, but reheat treating an old Mauser action will not bring it up to speed comparable with a CZ 550 for example. If the factory could have made the action more suitable, it would have, using the technology available. I question why today's so-called improved technology regarding heat treating could now be better somehow, specifically relating to the old actions.

Sure, it is possible to make them harder, but is that improved? Sure, a skilled gunsmith can make a 1909 Argentine into a small ring action, dress it up with a beautiful bolt handle, gold plate and engrave the damn thing, and put it in a fine piece of walnut. But does that make it any better than when it left the factory? Not to me, expecially if one has to speculate as to whether it was reheat treated or not, and further speculate whether the reheat treatment was effective or not.

I keep reading the logic of some as to the issue of certainty. They say why not just reheat treat just to be sure. I say that it is not that simple. Just reheat treating an old Mauser action does not convert it from uncertain to certain, like magic. Even if it makes it through the process without warping beyond use, I have great uncertainties about the composition of the metal, and the degree of hardness after the process. I would much rather deal with an action that demonstrates no issue of setback, in the condition it left the factory.

KB

It is my understanding that some were only
hardened in the locking area, where you can't test.
Since the experts argue if 15 million, or 50 million 98's were made there is plenty room for
variation in material and process.
Good Luck!

I called Jim Cloward and asked him if it had been carburized, and it had been long enough that he didn't remember specifically. If had been his action, he said, he would have had it done, but if a customer brought him the action and didn't want to pay for it, it might not be. He is a class act, just as others have said.

As I mentioned earlier, this purchase was for practice. I think I've learned all I need from this transaction - don't go too deeply into the depth chart. I canceled the order.