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How short can a rifle barrel be cut down to to still be a legal rifle? There is a local guy with a 16" .223 he say's is O.K. Just asking. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | ||
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16" is the shortest for a rifle. However I wouldn't go that short because the agent that measures it might go barrel total length or from the front of the bolt. They aren't always the same depending on the rifle. Or the guy that measures from the front of the action. So I would leave a little fudge factor. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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don't forget OAL is important too, I think it's 26" for a rifle?? | |||
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I would'nt go below 18" on a small bore centerfire. Larger calibers 20" plus. Interestingly, the .22lr develops it's highest velocity out of a 16" barrel. | |||
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26 it is. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What...l_length_for_a_rifle | |||
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I have a couple "carbine-ized" Mausers, a Swede and an Argie. 16.5" barrels, 38" and 36" OAL. Handy little rifles, the Argentine is 3" shorter than my M94 carbine. | |||
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 Unless you happen to own # 11 of these !. Of which 5 are registered because of barrel length issues !. Dam silly ass feds !. # 2 -12" , # 3 -15" an # 6-18"  I used to collect them when they were kind of reasonable like Win. 97's !.  | |||
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call the atf and ask.. and its NOT then a handgun, its then an illegal AOW, as it is ILLEGAL to make a pistol from a rifle or rifle from a pistol in the US ... yes, it is, and yes, you CAN break this law with a contender/encore ... please, it is worth restating.. if you overly shorten a rifle OR shotgun barrel, it is an ILLEGAL any other weapon .. #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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THEY MEASURE BARELL LEINGTH BY DROPING A ROD DOWN THE BORE TO THE BOLT FACE. SO FROM MUZZLE TO CLOSED BOLT FACE IS BBL LGTH. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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find it here 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) http://www.atf.gov/publication...5320-8-chapter-2.pdf VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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I thought they used a different method at the beginning of the Ruby Ridge incident. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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probably one can count on the barrel being measured the way the measurer wants to; I think this is why most short-as-is-legal barrels are a quarter-to-half inch longer than 16 inches, just in case. | |||
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They tried using their dicks but among all the agents present they couldn't collectively come up with 18 inches, thus they came up short and the rest is history. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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[QUOTE] as it is ILLEGAL to make a pistol from a rifle or rifle from a pistol in the US ... yes, it is, and yes, you CAN break this law with a contender/encore ... Didn't the contender carbine barrels used to be 16 1/4" just to be on the safe side. Also I was told that if the contender was purchased (registered) as a pistol it could be configured as a rifle or carbine but not vice-versa. The proper stock would have to be used for the configuration. Paul. | |||
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Jeffeosso, I'm not sure this is correct. My understanding is that you can go from a pistol to a rifle by adding a legal length barrel and butstock, but you can't go from a rifle back to a pistol. As an example, you can buy one of those AR-15 pistol things and put a 16 inch barrel and butstock on it and you have legally made a rifle. However, you can not legally take an AR-15 rifle and chop the barrel and take off the butstock. Once a rifle, always a rifle. However, I'm not a lawyer or an ATF agent so you should problably check with someone smarter than me before messing around with this stuff. As a result of these regulations, there are a number of gray areas. You can take a 1911 and put a butstock and a long barrel, but can you legally undo this "modification" which is really only changing out two parts? Westpac, That is the funniest thing I've ever seen on AR. Wes | |||
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I really like posts like this one. Seems to bring out a lot of the doomsayers and such. First of all, I would really like to meet someone who actually had a run in with the BATFE when converting their T/C Encore or Contender from pistol to rifle and back to pistol again. I mean never having it in an illegal configuration, such as 12" barrel wiht the rifle stock attached, for example. Second of all there needs to be a little common sense here. Think about this: If a gunsmith removes the stock from a Ruger 10/22 that has a 16" barrel, upon the removal of that stock he/she has "manufactured" a short barreled rifle since the OVERALL length will be less than the Federal Law 26" minimum length to not be a short barreled rifle. The regulations offer no exception to a gun being worked on, it only states that a rifle with a barrel of less than 16" or overall length of 26" is an NFA firearm. Now lets go one further..suppose you are working on the trigger of a Colt 1911. You mess it up and it doubles, or triples or empties the entire magazine when you pull the trigger that first time. Again, per Federal Law you have manufactured a full auto weapon. That frame is now illegal and must be destroyed per BATFE since no new full autos can be manufactured without the proper license, which most normal gunsmiths or shooters do not possess. Imagine if you had to tell a customer that you surrendered the frame of his $5K "race gun" because of a simple error on your part! The point here is, common sense. In these examples a person, or persons, did not intend to break the law. There was no desire to create an NFA weapon, but if you go by "technically" these two examples were in fact felonies. If you wanted to use a different example try this. You are walking and see a house on fire. Someone is screaming inside. You go to the door. It is locked so you kick it in. You follow the yelling and find a 10 year old child in a bedroom. You tell him to come to you and he refuses. You grab him and start to carry him out. He wants you to grab something that is his. You grab it and leave the house. So now let us add up the "technical" crimes here: Trespass Breaking and Entering Destruction of Private Property Burglary Robbery Assualt and Battery Kidnapping So with all those you could possibly get the death penalty for saving a child's life. Absolutely ridiculous, right? OF COURSE THIS SCENARIO IS! But, again, technically while all these laws were broken, there was NO INTENT to commit a crime. Look up Mech Tech on the web. They make carbine conversions for both the Glock and the 1911. Nothing about legality appears on their website except California specific laws. They have been in business, I think, about 20 years. I can't imagine everyone who bought one of their kits, once they converted the pistol frame to a carbine, kept it that way, nor can I imagine the same goes with Contenders and Encores. There may be those hard ass BATFE agents out there that would go out and put every Encore or Contender owner who ever switched from pistol to rifle, or rifle to pistol configuration into jail for the rest of their lives, but I have never heard of one and would be very interested in hearing about any. Just think about the fact that everytime you take a rifle from a stock and the length is less than 26", technically you are in violation of law. Never heard of that being pressed, but would be interested in hearing that case as well. One last thing, as I said in the beginning, I could not find anything in BATFE rules that excludes the SBR clause for guns being worked on. If it is there, could someone point me as to where to find it? | |||
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www.shootersdepot.com Check out the shorty and the super shorty! 7.5inch barrel on an AR-15. Legal to own in 35 states! Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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You and I think alike  As someone once said...Most of the stuff people worry about ain't never gonna happen anyway | |||
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It seems as though there are so many laws on the books that even the law enforcement agencies don't know them all. Problem is that they're there and if the official wants to dig deep enough he can find them. How many people here have more than a few pounds of powder for reloading? Is that then "risking a catastrophe"? There seems to be no abundance of common sense in today's society. We live in a world where it's the other guy's fault for my own stupidity. I think the BATFE has their hands so full they won't be targeting the average individual anytime soon. I think they basically adopted the military's " Don't ask Don't tell" policy. | |||
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Really? You would PUBLICLY tell people "it's okay to break a law that will result IN YOUR RIGHT TO KEEP ARMS BEING FOREVER REMOVED" just because YOU feel its "okay"? or handwringing? Gentlemen -- Here's my point of view -- NEVER break the law, and when in don't, go to the LEGAL side of the law. As for anyone EVER questioning if the ATF has prosecuted anyone over a too short gun.. ASk yourself THIS .. Why are the short barreled 410s SPECIFICALLY on the collectables list, as well as other short barreled weapons? Seriously, ANYONE that posts content of "its okay to break the law" needs to both ahve their HEAD EXAMINED and hire a good PERSONAL INJURY DEFENSE lawyer, on retainer .. as YOU advised them "it will be okay" .. and WHEN they are in court, and asked WHY, you will suddenly find yourself in a civil suit, loosing EVERYTHING you have ever owned. Hand wringing? No, gentlemen, its a "failure to warn" .. #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I agree completely with that point. _________________________________ The fact remains that the hypothetical situations that AlanFlauker brought up illustrated that even without “intent to do wrong” is can be very tough, if not completely impossible, to travel thought this life without technically violating some established law or regulation. When we look for a black and white answers to many questions today we find we simply have a mess on our hand with too many aspects of the legal system. Common sense is another place, they did things differently there. However…Just as ”ignorance of the laws is no excuse” will not fly as defense, neither will throwing up our hands and calling it “a mess” that cannot be solved. It is what it is.  We must be knowledgeable, cautious, and thorough in all things we undertake. | |||
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In EU a rifle is defined by having a barrel longer than 300mm(11.85") and a total length of min. 600mm(23.7") | |||
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16" is really common on the AR platforms these days; 14" of actual barrel and 2" of permanently afixed flash hider is how many are made and sold. If that 223 is an AR, it's pretty standard stuff as long as the method of attaching the flash hider is accepted by the BATF as permanent. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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It is mildly amusing to see that some people have the same concern for National Firearm Act violations as they would for traffic violations. Speeding ticket = small fine NFA violation = a new VERY small apartment and a boyfriend (oh yeah, and no more shooting...ever) One should really be careful with this stuff as it is a thick tangle of ATF rulings/opinions. Right or wrong, the atf MAKES the laws which are subject to change at their discretion. Wait a second, isn't that the legislative branch's job...oh well. Wes | |||
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Handgun to rifle is OK,,not the otherway around. Remington built the M600 rifle on the XP100 pistol action (very shortly after the XP100 was in production). It would not have been OK do it the other way around. They would have been producing a short barreled rifle instead of a handgun. Fed Reg 16" Bbl on a rifle,,18"Bbl on a shotgun, either 26" OAL,, though a few States have stricter specs IIRC. Having a rifle out of it's stock for repair/cleaning/etc and trying to nail the owner for possession of an unregistered SBR is like arresting them for possession of bomb making apparatus because they have powder, primers, some plumbing pipe in the garage, a few tripleA batteries in the kitchen drawer and an old Casio wrist watch laying around. Intent has much to do with it and there still is a court system that must be satisfied. Though any ride you take through that just to come out clean at the other side will likely break you financially and otherwise. Taking that same stockless rifle that's still shootable but now shorter than 26"OA out and about to impress your friends, out to the range, keep it in the truck 'cause it's handy,,etc. could get you in some trouble you might not wiggle out of. It can be made very difficult for you if you chose to disregard the regs. Just my .02 | |||
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I'm no lawyer, but... There is no need to have any "intent to do wrong" in order for a crime to be committed, but there does need to be intent of some sort. One could be ignorant of the law, and therefore have no intent to do any wrong, but still violate the law by cutting down an barrel or stock to make a rifle shorter than legal, even if the intent was completely innocent and pure. "Gee, I just wanted to make a nice handy little .22 rifle to teach my daughter to shoot..." If the intent was to make a shorter rifle, and if you go too far, you break the law whether you realized it or not. This is not the same as removing a barreled action from a stock, where the intent is to disassemble the rifle for cleaning or service, NOT to produce a shorter rifle. BIG difference. When you take a rifle apart you are not violating any laws. A barreled action is not a rifle. Mindless adherence to administrative technicalities without a basic understanding of the underlying spirit and intent of the regulation borders on idiocy. Anybody who is shy about taking a barreled action out of a stock for fear of breaking a law because they think they may have just "manufactured a short rifle", deserves whatever private hell they create for themselves through such ludicrous interpretation of the regulations. I won't even touch the burning house example... | |||
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My question was worded wrong... It should have read "How short can a rifle barrel be, and be legal?" It always amuses me how a thread can sometimes go on and on. I got it....16" thanks to all who gave me this info. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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You got it. 16" provided the overall length is at least 26". Good luck. Paul. | |||
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To just  Now lets throw in folding stocks that bring the rifle to under 26 inchs when folded but over 26 inchs when extended. | |||
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In that case I believe the OAL would have to be 26" when folded to pass the requirement. Right or wrong, that's how I would interpret it. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I cannot believe that this thread has taken on the life it has. A couple of points. First: montea6b...are you really serious that a barreled action is not a firearm?!?! If true that is great as the next time I buy a rifle I will just have the person take it out of the stock and it suddenly becomes a non-firearm! Get serious! And if a barreled action is not a firearm, take a couple M-1 carbines, cut the barrel to 10" and take them out of the stocks. Then go to a gunshow where the BATFE are known to frequent (most of the big ones) and put them on a table for sale. You might be in for a rude surprise when the friendly agent hauls your ass in...but remember, tell him that they are not firearms since they are not in stocks...good luck and keep us posted. Secondly, my point in the whole T/C issue is that I have never heard, or read, of anyone being tried on the issue of converting their Contender or Encore back and forth from rifle to pistol to rifle. I am still waiting to see documentation, other than my cousin had a friend whose brother's uncle's fellow worker was out at a gun range and heard someone tell the story of the BATFE arresting someone who might have converted a Contender or Encore. No one seemed to talk about Mech Tech either. That is the company that uses your 1911 or Glock frame to make a rifle. There were two local police officers here that bought them to try out. They were both avid shooters and though it was a unique idea. I guess now someone will have to turn them in since they are now carrying an illegal, unregistered NFA weapon (short barreled rifle since the Glocks were converted back to pistols) as a duty weapon. Silly, Stupid, Idiotic.....yes! But that proves my point. | |||
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I have neve encountered an ATF agent that did not take his or her job very seriously and the "don't ask, don't tell..." certainly does not apply to their approach to doing there job. Prior to doing any alterations to a firearm that you are not sure as to legality, don't do it until you kow for sure if it is legal. I don't particularly like some of the regulations regarding firearms, but what I like is of no consequence to the agent. | |||
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Dang, I am tired of this discussion. Randy Weaver's charges where illegally making a too short barreled shotgun, which cost him his wife, his freedom, and the US had all of Ruby Ridge. He took a hack saw to a shotgun, and wound up "famous" Gentlemen, obey the rules, and if there is any doubt, CALL THE ATF. On folding stocks .. there's LOTS of regs about folding stocks, and some combinations are de facto ILLEGAL ... like putting a folding stock on some post ban guns .. yeah, REALLY.. if a rifle, it can NOT be made to fire in the folded position, on a modification, according to an ATF bulletan i read a couple years ago. DO NOT rely on your memory or what used to be, or previous examples. The ATF changes their positions, and you MUST comply. Example, street sweeper shotguns -- declared to be NOT sporting, even though not fully automatic, short barreled, or any other criteria .. they decided that it was over .500 AND had no sporting use. Guess what? Its a position and its the law. Neither I nor the ATF care about your OPINION on the matter .. if you didn't register it, its ILLEGAL to on .. by law, from 1 day to the next. If you have questions on legality and want to STAY out of the gray bar hotel, TALK to the ATF. Its that easy. Any other path creates difficulties, and following advice of internet sages can wind YOU up in jail. #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Alan, before you post again, recall that the ATF can and has outlawed some silencers on paintbull guns and has a ruling on potatoe guns .. Don't blend your OPINION with ATF laws and rulings. #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Gee jeffe, guess you never been around many FAL's or AK's.  They do go bang with the stock folded | |||
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Jimmy, it helps if you quote the entirety "if a rifle, it can NOT be made to fire in the folded position, on a modification," You can NOT modify a rifle to have a folding stock and have it be under 26 inches AND be able to fire. Here's the REG, Jimmy --
Pretty clear, aint it? #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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You are absolutely right that a barreled action is a firearm. Before you jump down my throat though, please re-read my original post. What I actually said is that it wasn't a "rifle". It is a sub-assembly of a rifle. A subtle distinction for sure, but crucial to the point I was trying to make. You not only mis-quoted me, but took it entirely out of context. I understand that a barreled action is a firearm by letter of the law. It is serialized and must be bought, sold, and shipped as a firearm. Hell, even a plain receiver is treated as such. I am not quite as stupid as you imply above. I guess I didn't do a very good job of making my point. What fired me up and got me posting was the perverse chain of logic which suggested that I should not take my Swedish Mauser carbine out of the stock to checker or glass bed it because in doing so I will have then "manufactured" a completely new and illegal weapon. Yes, the barreled action is a firearm, and is perfectly capable of being made to fire, (I'd like to watch an ATF agent prove that point...) but it is not a complete assembly. In other words, not a full rifle... There is a big difference between disassembly of a rifle into different components with the intent to perform routine maintenance or repairs, and cutting down a barrel or stock and reassembling it to create a new modified shorter weapon. That was my point... | |||
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montea6b: I do believe you and I are saying the same thing...when you take the action out of the stock you have NO INTENT to break the firearms laws. The same with a T/C..by taking off the stock, then the barrel, putting a pistol grip on it and then a pistol barrel, then changing back in the same basic order, you have no intent to break the law. I didn't mean to jump down your throat, but I have heard this argument for 20+ years and have never seen a documented case where the BATFE went after a T/C owner. Can it happen? Of course it can. Will it happen....maybe, maybe not. | |||
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no sweat, cheers.  | |||
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this will probably raise more arguements but ohwell, i tried to inform those that care. http://bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239 I call your attention specically to (note, the *I* in this quote is NOT ME)
#dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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