I've heard for some time that ammo such as Wolf steel cased ammo can be harmful to chambers.

I've shot Wolf ammo in a variety of working long guns and handguns. All still seem to work okay. Guns continue to function, rounds continue to go downrange.

Fact or fiction?

Thanks for your input. Tom

I think this is due to the old laquered cases- they would cause build up in chambers with heavy use and no cleaning

There are many, many angles to this. Firing a case of steel in a chamber... NO that should not cause problems. As suggested, how has the steel been rust proofed? At the same time, the gripe about Wolf is usually around a self loader, AR or Mini14 that yanks the case out and this, the difference in metal adhesion under pressure, can cause problems. (AR's and minis are not designed around steel cases, could be but are not...) You look at all the Russian ammo that was fired in the bolt actions... Now the self loaders are very new, relatively... here less experience, ... luck.

The lacquer which is used to retard oxidation on the surface of the steel cases produced for cheap civilian bulk sales will melt when heated. Since the recreational application by many owners of the ubiquitous 7.62x39 chambered in the equally ubiquitous SKS and AK-derivitives is often "spray and pray", or "the more noise the better", the barrels and chambers of these guns can get very hot very quickly. After a couple of full magazines sprayed across the countryside, the shooter takes a break to open another Bud Lite, leaving a cartridge in the very hot chamber. The lacquer melts, leaving the chamber full of crud. When you think about it, it is not hard to understand where the horror stories about steel-cased ammuniton come from.

With no disrespect meant for iiranger above, I really don't think the steel case problem has much to do with the design of the weapon. There is plenty of steel-cased 5.56 ammunition in use by militaries around the world that functions just fine in the AR platform. It just isn't coated with cheap, non-heat resistant lacquer, but with other coatings that better withstand high temperatures.

The two big gripes I hear about steel cased rifle ammo are:

1. Wolf is charged inconsistently and may thus cause damage to XYZ rifle if an overcharged case is fired.
2. The steel rims seems to be harder on extraction mechanisms on autoloaders designed with brass cases in mind.

Most of the serious complaints I've read online center around Wolf rifle ammo in autoloading rifles. Other brands, like Golden Bear, seem to work just fine.

Commi-country guns like the SKS and AKs are designed to fire steel case ammo and do it quite well, I might add. American guns like the AR and mini's, as someone else pointed out, are not. The lacquer is also a lubricant to aid in the steel on steel sliding that takes place. I personally would not use steel cased ammo on anything I cared about unless I got into a "SH#T hits the fan" situation. Having said that, I would not hesitate to use it in a SKS or AK. They are made for it.

Okay, I'll bite: How is it that AK's and SKS's are "made" for steel ammunition and other rifles are not. What are the differences in design or dimensions? How would one modify one type to the other type?

Enquiring minds want to know.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Okay, I'll bite: How is it that AK's and SKS's are "made" for steel ammunition and other rifles are not. What are the differences in design or dimensions? How would one modify one type to the other type?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Yeh, mine does anyway...

One thing I can say is that I have used and reloaded berdan-primed German WWII and pre-WWII steel cases for many, many years and have never had any detected damage to my sporting rifles from them.

Reloading steel cases is really no different than reloading brass ones, in my experience. The steel cases ARE stronger though, and don't seem to stretch as much on firing, in either diameter at the base, or overall length.

YMMV

(I still prefer brass cases, but am not at all upset when I have to use steel ones.)

OK then, why do the Commie/former Commie nations use steel for their cases? Cost, availability?

And why has the US Military stuck (mostly) with brass?

steel is cheaper than brass

in the terms of the life span of a firearm, no, it won't hurt a thing...

no worse, CERTAINLY than shooting wwII milsurp corrosive ammo.

it shoots just fine .. clean the chamber with a brush when it has cooled off

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
steel is cheaper than brass

I'm well aware of that fact.

In theory, brass was chosen because it does stretch. When a case is fired the brass stretches to form a good seal against the chamber walls, preventing blow back of gases. Steel, since it does not stretch as much would not be "as effective" in performing this function. With chamber pressures as high as they are, this is most likely not an issue. In extreme cases where an over sized chamber fires an undersized steel case, there might be some slight gas cutting in the throat as the response time for the steel's expansion is greater than it would be with brass.


Is this a real life issue? It most likely falls into the category of "NEEDING" a 1/2 MOA gun for hunting big game. In practice, it most likely is such a small difference as to be meaningless babble. The barrel would most likely be shot out before it made any noticeable difference. The wear caused by gumming up the works with the coating and wear on the extractor are more of an issue. If the gun is taken care of, (cleaned) it shouldn't make a big difference. Steel just isn't as pretty or have the traditional look....It must be worse.

As for the US military using mostly brass, we are not afraid to spend money (good and bad) and we also like to have our troops out there with the most reliable tools at there disposal. If a gun cannot be cleaned on schedule because they are in a bad spot... I know that I wouldn't want any of our guys to worry about their gun jamming due to an excessive build up of whatever corrosion resistant coating was on the steel cases.

We value individual lives more than many of the other countries in the world. If there is a chance it will fail due to this issue, forget it and get the best stuff available. Our Troops are worth it. Some of the other countries are willing to play the odds with their people or simply do not have the money available to do otherwise. I'm glad I don't live anywhere else. Bad economy and all, the USA is still a great place to live.

Craig-

This is just a guess, but I suspect one of the reasons the Warsaw Pact nations and the Mainland Chinese use steel cases by preference is because they stand up better under tough conditions.

Sure they rust if not protected, BUT, they are much less subject to denting, season cracking of the necks, that sort of thing. When they are being transported at night over really rotten trails, thrown into any conveyance available (with or without a special container) and just generally abused in transport and storage both, I think they hold up a LOT better.

I'd bet that's at least part of why their military likes them. Not only that, but I suspect they are more reliable when fired in oversized, pitted, or otherwise damaged chambers exactly because they don't perfectly conform to every pit or flaw as easily as brass does.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Craig-

This is just a guess, but I suspect one of the reasons the Warsaw Pact nations and the Mainland Chinese use steel cases by preference is because they stand up better under tough conditions.

Sure they rust if not protected, BUT, they are much less subject to denting, season cracking of the necks, that sort of thing. When they are being transported at night over really rotten trails, thrown into any conveyance available (with or without a special container) and just generally abused in transport and storage both, I think they hold up a LOT better.

I'd bet that's at least part of why their military likes them. Not only that, but I suspect they are more reliable when fired in oversized, pitted, or otherwise damaged chambers exactly because they don't perfectly conform to every pit or flaw as easily as brass does.

Best and most loginal answer I've heard.

I don't think it hurts a thing to shoot steel cased ammo in a firearm.

I bought a S&W 5.45X39 AR-15 last year and it's never seen a brass cased cartridge and probably never will. When I bought it you could get 1080rnds of surplus ammo for $129. Knowing the price will never go down I went ahead and bought enough ammo to wear the upper out.

The part that I find amazing is the rifle will shoot this ammo around MOA! It was a pleasent surprise to find this out.

Terry

quote:

I think they hold up a LOT better.

Possibly a factor but a lot of chinese ammo I have seen is brass. Brass may cost more but surely it's cheaper to form? Metal shortages might have played a role originally. I do see a lot of aluminum 223/5.56 cases lying around. Is that cost related? But on the steel being harmful, it could be if it is corroded. Would roughly handled steel be that reliable - the lacquer coating could get damaged, resulting in rust, maybe? Or is the lacquer that tough? (It lasts long enough on the wet ground).

quote:

The part that I find amazing is the rifle will shoot this ammo around MOA! It was a pleasent surprise to find this out.

The 7.62 Soviet seems to be inherently accurate and the AR15 seems to be an inherently accurate platform. The SKS seems pretty accurate with surplus ammo too!

Lots of good comments! Also the U.S. used steel cased ammo during WWII and in years past I reloaded lots of it.
The bottom line being, there would be no damage to a modern firearm from using steel cased ammo.

Thank you Gents for taking the time to respond to my inquiry.
Best......Tom

quote:

Originally posted by SS:
Lots of good comments! Also the U.S. used steel cased ammo during WWII and in years past I reloaded lots of it.
The bottom line being, there would be no damage to a modern firearm from using steel cased ammo.

I have the remainder of a box of .45 ACP steel-cased G.I. ball ammuition that my father brought back from WW-II. About every five years or so, I'll dig it out an fire a round through my chronograph. It always registers the same 850 fps that it has been running since I tried it through the paper screens of an Oehler Model 10 better than 35 years ago.

As to why some countries predominantly use steel cases, I believe it to be largely a matter of economics. Steel is simply cheaper.

Glad to learn about how guns are designed and made differently for steel-cased ammo , thanks for the education.