The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Converting large ring mauser to small ring Mauser- serial number issues?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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When converting a large ring (small thread)mauser to small ring, would there be a problem with removing the serial number and re-engraving it? Just wondering. I haven't read the laws and don't know where to find them. Thanks. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | ||
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Blowjobs are illegal in many states. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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That makes no sense ????? ......civilize 'em with a Krag | |||
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I think this is the question: Most Turks are threaded for the small ring barrel but have the standard length action of a large ring M98.  Since I don't have a turk handy, if the large ring is ground to small ring dimensions it may remove the serial number? If so, is there a problem with this as long as the number is engraved or somehow permanently re-marked on the receiver? Anyway, I think that is what is being asked. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Restamping it is fine. For example: Most Brno 21/22 series rifles only have the serial number on the barrel. If you rebarrel it, you have to put the serial number on the new barrel, other wise you would have a rifle with no number. | |||
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Not to send this in a different direction, but, I think the small thd, large ring Turks have a relief behind the threads sized like a large ring thd. I thought about doing that to mine but was warned against it. You could be turning your Turk into a KAR or what ever the small ring with lg thds action is. Don't know about the serial number thing. Sorry. | |||
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This has absolutely nothing to do with the question. There's nothing wrong with having a receiver without a serial # provided it NEVER had one. I called the bureau and asked them. Call the feds and ask them about the original question. They'll tell you in a big hurry that's it's not legal to remove an existing #. State laws may also have a say in the matter. Don't believe any crap you see posted about S#s on a forum. Nobody here posting will bail you out of jail or pay your atty fees. food for thought.... | |||
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He's not talking about removing a serial number, he is talking about recutting the original number after the ring is turned down.  As for the Brno's, you'd better put the number on the new barrel, or no FFL would touch it for a tranfer. | |||
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In the eyes of the law it makes no difference if you remove and then replace the serial number. The criminal offense was removing the serial number weather or not you replaced it after the fact. That said many have done it and gotten away with it. Some (very few) have not. Personally I'd do it without thinking about it. But it's my skin on the line. I could not in good faith advise you to do the same. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I'm not at all certain, but you may check with BATF and see if you could send it to a Certified Firearms Manufacturer gunsmith. It may be legal for them to do it. Per the above quote, I believe that to be accurate. If you reduce the diameter of a Turk receiver ring to small ring, you in essence create a small ring Mauser action. It would be marginal for .30-06/.308 class rounds as are true small rings. You'd be as well off starting out with a good German made small ring action in the first place. | |||
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What if... before you grind the receiver you stamp an additional number in the sear groove channel or on the underside of the recoil block. Then after grinding it's still numbered ? ForrestB, that blew right over everybodys head  | |||
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Again I'll say that under Title 18 USC Ch 44 section 922 (k) it is unlawful to alter a serial number and that means the original number in the original location and condition. As stated above it maybe possible for a licensed manufacturer to do this But I believe it would be very expensive due to paper work and filling fees but it would be correct. The law allows no provision for removing and replacing the serial number nor marking in a second location. This may be different under the manufacturers laws. But again on MY rifle. I wouldn't even blink about it. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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OK then what about the 2 VZ500 actions I bought several years ago, Neither had ever been barreled & had no seriel #s. I have now made 1 of them into a complete rifle by istalling a barel, stocking it etc.. Can I just pick out a seriel # out of my head & stamp the receiver? Does that make me a "manufacturer"? GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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If the rifle never had a serial number to begin with it never needs one. As for stamping a new number on an action that had no number to begin with... I don't know if that would make you a manufacturer or not. I do know you are allowed to build anything you want so long as it is not already illegal to own and you are building it for personal use and you can never sell it. But that applies to an action that you machine. Or to a 80% action. And as far as a bolt action goes I have no clue what would constitute a 80% action www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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A bit of extra work, but you could do the following: When turning down the ring, when the serial number stamping starts to get shallow, deepen it using the original stamping as a guide. Turn down some more, and if necessary, repeat the deepening. There is NO law against restamping the same serial number deeper. | |||
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Please take this at face value. I know I'm being a stick in the mud here but with the latest run of BATFE overreactions to things like this "Letter" of the law should be followed as we have no idea if the BATFE will support you in "Spirit" of the law. And yes I know this is in direct controdiction to my earlier posts but In giving advice I stick to the Letter of the law. My Stuff is a different story. I know this is a stretch and how would anybody ever find out but even stamping a current serial number deeper is in theory illegal. It is an "alteration" Granted it may not pass muster in court but it is enough to get a warrant which in itself is bad enough. Taken from Title 18 section 922 (k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. This also explains how Montana can thumb their nose at the Feds as the weapons they produce for sale to residents of Montana are not for export or interstate commerce. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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From a strictly legal perspective, it's hard to argue with ForrestB's initial observation regarding this matter. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Which is:
Let me translate: It may be illegal but people do it anyway because after it's done no one can tell and therefore isn't enforceable! | |||
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both are also a victim less crime.  www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I believe if you contact BATFE you can apply for a an exception permit. You describe this scenario to them and they can issue you a permit for that specific gun to perform the work which will alter the serial number while you are performing the work and then you re-mark it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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yeah, but what we want to know is in what states it is legal to get head. | |||
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removing a SN is a felony .. every time .. iirc, its called defacement ... do people do it? yep .. can't condone it if there's a SN, removing it is a problem .. if there's no SN, then i reckon it doesn't apply opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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We can start with Washington DC.....there's a famous case there! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I ALWAYS tell people to NEVER take legal advice from internet forums. I am sticking with that one on this issue. If they would feel uncomfortable with their best evidence being to tell the judge hearing their case, "But your honor, some anonamous folks living in unknown places told me it was OK!" and handing him/her a printout of a forum thread, then they should not get legal advice from unknown people in unknown places posting on an internet forum. My personal experience: i have contacted (via their web site) the ATF on this issue on more than one occasion and got some comflicting advice. Have also asked this question to two ATF agents sitting at my kitchen table. They looked at each other sorta hemmed-hawed for a second and advised me to contact the ATF through the web site and get the opinion of their legal folks. I just said, "OK, I'll do that. Thanks for the advice on how to get the best answer to this question." And yes, I was 100% sincere when i said that to them. My advice to folks with ATF questions is to contact them yourself, get it in writing (which would includie email) and keep it on file. If you should get conflciting advice from multiple persons answering the question, then go with the most conservative answer (i.e.-the one least likely to get you convicted of any crime). But that is just me. I know several folks on this board and they can all attest to the fact that I am WAY too little to go to jail. They would have a field day with my ass in there!!!  \But that was my opinion on a legal matter posted in an internet forum, so you should relaly just disregard it. I should point out that ATF who has come to my home and every one with whom I have spoken on the phone has been nothing but polite, professional, and friendly. | |||
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It is illegal to REMOVE a serial number. It is NOT illegal to relocate the serial number when modifications to the firearm will affect the legibility of the original s/n. The way to stay within the law is to stamp an identical number in the new position before removing the original. And, as usual, Forrest is correct. Mike Ryan - Gunsmith | |||
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No Mike, it is NOT according the clear ATF guidelines - You can NOT ALTER or remove a SN .. Stamping it elsewhere and REMOVING the original is, rather techincally, destroying the original SN - putting it back is ALTERING it ... and don't think persons haven't been arrested or freed on a techincal.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc...0000922----000-.html
Write the ATF on the matter - The law is CLEAR -- and laws exist because the condition has been broken, before .. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would go to a forum to answer a question about the lawfulness of ANYTHING...ESPECIALLY about firearms...all you get is the roundy-roundy BS that is very appearant by this thread. Doesn't matter if the question is academic or actual. And quoting the proper code section doesn't give you the Attorney Generals(State or Fed) opinion OR any case numbers, it is not YOUR interpretation of a code that means squat...it is what the Man says it is. The law is NEVER CLEAR and NEVER HAS BEEN...all you have to do is look at some of the opinions of the Supreme Court...they reverse themselves so often it's a wonder they can even stand straight...some can't but for other reasons. The AG's opinion is the one that counts...all the hot air and posturing aside...if you want to know for certain then contact the BATF and get THEIR stated opinion from the AG, IN WRITING, and any/all case studies or exemptions. Gunmaker stated it accurately and succinctly, Matt, so did Forrest although, a bit obtusely. Luck | |||
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We need a couple of definitions here. FIrst, what is altering? If you surfact grind, or even slightly polish, a Mauser 98 action, you are "altering" the serial number by decreasing the depth in which it is stamped. I looked up the ATF regs and there are guidelines as to what the minimum depth of the serial number stamping should be. And as kscott pointed out in my earlier answer, if stamping it deeper is an alteration, then logically making it shallower is also an alteration, Next would be obliteration. If you drill and tap a 03 Springfield receiver for scope mounts, there is a chance that you will drill through part of the serial number. If you put scope mounts on some rifles that too will cover up serial numbers. If you are handling that rifle and want to know what the serial number is, you cannot find out without access to tools to remove the rings and bases. Is that obliteration of the number, since it is not readily available for viewing? The one other question I have relates to custom Mauser's I have seen photos of on this forum. They are surface ground and in some cases been converted to "double square bridge" configuration. Where the serial number is on those actions normally, it is now nonexistent. Where is the serial number located on those actions? | |||
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What if the old barrel was reused on another action? Then you'd have two firearms, (barrels) with the same serial number... | |||
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