I had a well known barrel maker rebarrel a Rem 700 Sendero in the original .300 Win Mag. I wanted to build a hunting rifle I could shoot long distances. I specified that I wanted to shoot heavier bullets in the 190 to 210 grain class. It returned to me as promised. There is no fault with the work, the barrel or barrel maker whatsoever! I believe I received what I ordered. But I just checked the chamber with the OAL gauge and the throat is so long that a Berger 190VLD bullet barely fits into the case mouth by about .100 to the lands. If memory serves me right this should be at least as long as the caliber bullet. To fulfill that requirement it appears that I have approx. .208 from ogive to lands. I hope I am on the right track. And if I were to shoot a 210grain VLD then the bullet would prolly fit just about right I am thinking.

How would this lengthy throat affect accuracy, if I shot a lighter bullet, say in the 175-180 gr class? Specifically more along the lines of a lighter bullet? Do you think I need to have the barrel pulled and chamber recut or elave it as is?

ARGGH! Why do I do it sometimes? LOL! What I meant to say is that after the initial measurement left the 190 gr class bullet to seat into case mouth by only .100. This is definitely not enuff for the case mouth to grip the bullet. If I were to seat the bullet to caliber depth of .308 then I would have approx .208 to the lands from ogive. This seems rather long! However a longer 210 grain bullet might seat to depth of the .308. I hope I got it right this time.

Regardless of the length of the throat or freebore, the throat should be cut so as to guide the bullet straight into the riflings without any deflection. If you have a long sloppy throat then yes, that can adversly affect accuracy, however, if the long throat is tight enough so that the bullet doesn't hop, skip and jump to the riflings, then the acccuracy from the standpoint of the throat, should be fine.

FWIW, all of my throat reamers are at a minimum, .0005 over bullet and with a gentle 1.5 degree leade so as to avoid any hop, skip and jump.

Most folks who seat their bullets to touch the lands are doing so, not to gain additional space for more powder, though some do, but to reduce the amount of "off axis" error which occurs, when a bullet enters the riflings from a less than perfect throat, which does affect accuracy.

It depends on the dimensions that the throat was cut to. If the throat was cut say 0.001" over bullet diameter then you often times get excellent accuracy even with signifigant bullet jump. If the throat was cut to sloppy saami specs, don't be suprised if you have trouble getting tight groups with the bullets well off the lands.

The other comment is you are best served making up a dummy round and telling the smith to cut the chamber so the bullet kisses the lands with that bullet loaded to that COL.

Westpac and Paul? That makes sense all the sense in the world. What I guess I need to do is just to shoot the rifle and see how it is with this bullet. The rifle sure hated factory with groups of 3" or more. LOL!

I'm not a gunsmith, but i would return it and tell him it doesn't shoot well enough. a decent bbl. will shoot any reasonably well made ammo less than 3".regarding the length of throat you need to be more specific in what you want. rem. throats the factory bbls. long also, or at least they used to. I've had 2 new rem. 700's in .300 win. mag, i couldn't touch the lands with any bullet that would fit in the magazine, yet they both shot anything under 2", and most around 1 1/4".

What happens in the case of a cartridge in which there is no bullet shank protruding from the case at all? Does the neck have the ability to guide that bullet true until it engages the leade?

If it's shooting that poorly with factory fodder, that's a bad omen. A properly put together custom rifle will typically shoot any load into 1 1/2" or better, and favorite loads in the 1/2" range.

You ordered a long range rifle. That means very good balistic coeficeint with fast twist to fight wind and still stablize at long range.. Long range now days means 1000 yards.. You need the longer bullets AND enough powder to get it moving to enough velocity to stay over the speed of sound at 1000 yards.. The further the bullet is seated out the more powder it will take to get accureaccy,,,, !!!.. You dont want to get max accuracy at a low powder amount for the caliber.. you did not want a factory cartige gun that wont shoot 1000 yards??? right?... Wrong twist, short throat, light weight barrel, etc, etc.. You contacted a smith that knows what hes doing, and youve gotten what you ordered.. If it shoots those hard to stabilize bullets in the first 100 yards at 1/2 moa, you will be fine as far out as its over 1150 fps.. It will seem to shoot better the further out it goes... Now you have to learn how to load bullets, and how to shoot the wind.. find the load that stabilizes those boatails the best.. They are a little cranky sometimes in some guns.. Youl have a blast, take your time.. this info just doesnt seem to be easily found out there, i had to find it out myself,, by luck i might add.. my 788 in 6mm rem and 1-9 twist does fine at 1000 yards with 8 pounds added weigth forward hanging on the bipod... Its doing about 1188 with 87 grain vmax bullets, and luckily that Twist works.. BUTTTT! I had to work my buns off for months to get her to shoot 1/2 inch at 100 yards.. The barrel was so worn that i finally jacked up the powder grains, moved the bullet out, and she startd to shoot.. the reason 1000 yards seems so difficult is becouse of all the rules have to be followed, then you need to learn how to shoot in the wind.. Not hard really, its like two guys carrying a sheet of plywood, after youve figered it out its not bad at all.. Take your time, have fun, dont blame the smith, sounds like he knows what hes doing.. Try many bullets, measure velocity at 10 yards, get on a computer and determin its velocity at 1000 yards.. Enjoy the ride, altho it is always stressfull to me.. iTS alot of work tho.. weigh your cases, measure the overall lenght of our loaded bullets, and sort in in groups that are the same with the coaxial straitness lined up to the straitest in that lenght and case weight.. carefully weigh your powder Use the crooked ones for your sightin.. .. then make sure you have a backdrop you can see the impact and sight in a prevailing wind for that day/time your out. this is a good flag angle / and youl start lobbing them in there.. I shoot 2 1/2 gal plastic water jugs at 1000 yards with one flag, and a three round sight in.. I go down and measure the amount im off in that flag possition, and set the scope moa, load the clip, and march them in, its a blast.. Its easiest if your gun can see the impacts due to background, dryness of dirt and scope power/clearness, and gun weight.. Its not unusual to have 8 feet of drift in heavy wind, but the faster wind is usually consistent, the calm is NOT!!! If you need, you can add weight to your harris bipod so the target doesnt move out of the scope window. tighten down the bipod enough so it doesnt slip and change cant with your sighting and succesive rounds.. (you will hve to break in a new barrel and clean copper fowling for some time with a new barrel, unless its a very expensive one)
dave

fffg...after reading my post again it does appear I am blaming the gunsmith...but I really am not blaming the gunsmith at all. I picked the barrel and gunsmith based upon their history after lengthy research on the net, many forums, etc. I firmly believe I got what I ordered. I am very happy with the work. (The way it's set up with a 1/10 twist BR barrel, 30" in length, a Holland muzzle break, and Decelerator pad it shoots like a .243)

I did want a 1000 yard rifle that would hit targets/animals out to that distance. It just seemed like the throat was a little long considering I tried to measure the throat/OAL with a 190 grain Berger VLD. Forgive my lack of machinging knowledge, but it appears it's almost a 1/4" jump to the lands from the ogive if I seat the bullet to caliber depth. While I don't have any 210 grain bullets as of yet, I was just wondering if the throat was too long? Then I wondered what affect on accuracy it would have if I loaded a 175-180grain class bullet. And to me? It was an expensive barrel.

I was shooting factory Win fodder in 180grain bullets. Since the throat is so long and there is that length of jump it made sense I was getting apprx 3" groups. So now I just need to get some 210grain bullets and fire them up. I do believe that after working with things I will have what I was after.

I also was not critisizeing you for your question. I was wondering about the advice you were getting when you only just recived the gun and havet had time to work with it... put about 3-6 months hard work into her, asking the smith questions as your problems come up and he will be able to tell you where to go to get the accuraccy you need.. dave

So, you haven't shot it yet?
SHOOT IT.. seat the bullets out to max, and work up loaded. You asked for a very specific function rifle, and long bullets, using the longest seating possible, and then custom loads are part of it. WIll it shoot factory ammo? frankly, WHO CARES, as that's not what you wanted.

Try it out and see, and don't fret

If you want less jump for one reason or the other it will not be a big deal to move the barrel back and rechamber it.. Hunting at long range presents lots of problems. You need power to expand and pennetrate at those extreem ranges where velocity is waning. It seems a nosler partition would be perfect for that, but at short range, 150 yards lets say (at velocities good for 1000 yards), it would probably blow a deer to smithereens with a partition.. but all this will keep you buisy and keep the ole noggin grinding at night.. Lots of lost sleep, up at dawn out shooting the latest loads before work etc.. It only wont work if you give up.. It WILL work if you keep at it.. 300 win is an excellent choice.. Any bigger and it will knock the snot out of you in a carrying weight.. There was a guy out at the range several months ago shooting a 338 lapua in a 20 lb gun, it kicked the crap out of him at high velocity, and the angled rear brake was hurting his ears with soft plugs and ear muffs over that.. brutal gun, but a long range go getter, with power to reach out and touch something.. I personlly seem to loose interest in a gun once ive found that great load im searching for.. So in that sence i envy you.. DAVE

quote:

Originally posted by RenegadeRN:
I had a well known barrel maker rebarrel a Rem 700 Sendero in the original .300 Win Mag. I wanted to build a hunting rifle I could shoot long distances. I specified that I wanted to shoot heavier bullets in the 190 to 210 grain class. It returned to me as promised. There is no fault with the work, the barrel or barrel maker whatsoever! I believe I received what I ordered. But I just checked the chamber with the OAL gauge and the throat is so long that a Berger 190VLD bullet barely fits into the case mouth by about .100 to the lands. If memory serves me right this should be at least as long as the caliber bullet. To fulfill that requirement it appears that I have approx. .208 from ogive to lands. I hope I am on the right track. And if I were to shoot a 210grain VLD then the bullet would prolly fit just about right I am thinking.

How would this lengthy throat affect accuracy, if I shot a lighter bullet, say in the 175-180 gr class? Specifically more along the lines of a lighter bullet? Do you think I need to have the barrel pulled and chamber recut or elave it as is?

RenegadeRN, try the 210, but also contact your smith and ask him what he throated the barrel for. If you didn't provide him with a dummy round to use, then he should have had some idea what length to go with. The beautiful thing is, if the throat is too long, the barrel can be set back to close the throat to acheive the desired length. I would recommend to anyone who is contemplating custom chamber work, that they should provide the gunsmith a dummy round for which to set the throat. Fewer misunderstandings and hard feelings that way.

Thank you everyone. I will Westpac. In the future I will ensure I have a dummy round made up. This is my first attempt at a semi-custom, etc. type rifle. It's just about everything I dreamed of and more. I will try the 210's. If it doesn't work I will start asking more and better questions.

your question was fine, and well recieved, it got plenty of atterntion, and we hope you got some answeres if not overkill.. Remember target bullets are not neccesarily good hunting bullets.. dave

quote:

Originally posted by Westpac:
Regardless of the length of the throat or freebore, the throat should be cut so as to guide the bullet straight into the riflings without any deflection. If you have a long sloppy throat then yes, that can adversly affect accuracy, however, if the long throat is tight enough so that the bullet doesn't hop, skip and jump to the riflings, then the acccuracy from the standpoint of the throat, should be fine.

FWIW, all of my throat reamers are at a minimum, .0005 over bullet and with a gentle 1.5 degree leade so as to avoid any hop, skip and jump.

Most folks who seat their bullets to touch the lands are doing so, not to gain additional space for more powder, though some do, but to reduce the amount of "off axis" error which occurs, when a bullet enters the riflings from a less than perfect throat, which does affect accuracy.

so if I am reading what you are saying correctly, if the chamber and throat are cut correctly seating bullets to where they are touching or into the lands is far less important than it would be on like on a sloppy chambered factory gun??

renegade, why not see how the gun shoots before complaining about it. I have a tikka t3 that has a throat a mile long!!! infact I don't even know how long it is because when I use my stoney point tool on it the bullets push all the way out of the case. its got a thin little pencil barrel and shoots 4 different bullets with 3 different powders into .5 agg groups, I just seat to mag lenght and keep on blastin

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:

so if I am reading what you are saying correctly, if the chamber and throat are cut correctly seating bullets to where they are touching or into the lands is far less important than it would be on like on a sloppy chambered factory gun??

That is what I am saying. A correctly cut chamber would be ideal for a particular configuration and so seating out to the lands would not be necessary unless you needed to add case volume.

fffg...I do truly appreciate the answers and insight. I know that some of the bullet makers frown on shooting target bullets at game, but according to the maker of the bullet I am shooting, they said they have had excellent results on game. I also am considering other maker's premium bullets, such as the TSX, Nosler, Sierra, Hornady, etc.. I am including those in 180 grain class. This is why wondering how the length of throat might affect flight/accuracy in a lighter weight/shorter length bullet.

Cummins Cowboy..I didn't mean to sound like I was complaining. I was just mentioning that the throat was long, or at least longer than I expected. Again, I am more than ecstatic with the work. I got what I ordered. If there had been a mistake it would have been on me. I was just wondering, since all the research I performed including shooting in other rifles, that the rounds I've reloaded in the past were more accurate when the bullet was closer to the lands. I also wondered if I did shoot a lighter grain class bullet how a long throat would affect the accuracy. I will as everyone has suggested shoot the rifle first and see how it is. I am just appreciative that we have such great people on AR. Thank you.

Some ramblings that may or may not be well recieved... Just like to talk about these things as im a hunter, target shooter etc.. your working with a very difficult equation here at long range and bullet dependablity.. What im trying to say is from my personal experience using the 6mm 87 grain vmax that is made for varmits and luckily has a 400 bal coeficent.. At 3000 fps MUZZEL velocity it will totaly blow up a 1 gal water jug at 700 yards, i can see it raining out there.. At 1000 yards it will pass thru a 2 1/2 gallon drinking water jug with little disturbance to either side except for a hole and a crack on the back side of the plastic jug, the water just glugs out... the aprox 1150- 1200 fps just doesnt cut it for any expansion with even a explosive bullet like the vmax.. It appears it could actually be a good deer bullet seeing the pennetration at that range, but under 700 yards it very well could blowup on a rib.. (i would never shoot at a deer at those ranges if my wits are with me.) So as far as the bullet your using it could be fine out to hunting distances.. But youl need to find that out.. Hunting distnaces are defined as a distance that you can set up quickly within a reasonable time at least, and determin the range including angle rise, fall, wind etc, and reliably put it into the kill zone.. A target bullet that would be chosen by target shooters CANNOT deform during reloading or shooting, so id be leary of claims of a bullet that would be able to both well.. They may be on the market already, and there may be companies that are working on that.. As a 1000 yard bullet the vmax has its dissavantages, some lots are ok some arnt.. you must test your bullets that you use for both accuracy, AND reliablity of pennetration and expanstion at the ranges you will hunt if you start getting out of the box.. The box id say is under 600 yards under perfect circumstances with a very good and practiced rifleman... There is a big difference to me of shooting an explosive bullet at a coyote at 600 yards, and a pennetrating bullet at a deer at 600 yards, both logically, mechanically, and ethically.. so youve got alot of work in front of you.. But your behind the wheel and it will take many many rounds to accurize your loads, test them at all the ranges and be able to read the distance, wind etc to do it.. Practically youl probably need a new barrel when your getting in that zone. I persanally enjoy it, but it takes alot of time.. A couple years ago i saw a doe with its lower front leg blown off, hobbiling across a hill side, It was illegal for me to shoot it, and unethical to shoot and let it lay.. A terrible circumstance...I can only hope the coyotes got it that night.. the very best of luck to you, respectfully dave

quote:

Originally posted by ffffg:
A couple years ago i saw a doe with its lower front leg blown off, hobbiling across a hill side, It was illegal for me to shoot it, and unethical to shoot and let it lay.. A terrible circumstance...I can only hope the coyotes got it that night..

Well, what did you do?

There was a car with about a 12 year old following it, by the road. It was 100 yards above the road at that time, maybe trying to cross.. Without a doe permit there was nothing i could have done as far as killing it, which could have been done in a lodgical world. I suppose i could have shot it, turned myself in and paid the fine, hoping they would not take my hunting privleges away for 2 years.. Arround here the fish and game follow the letter of the law.. I could go into alot of detail of what that means.. Last year my son got turned in for shooting too close to a road.. The people who turned him in admitted they did not see him shoot the deer. The fish and game were at the door within an hour of when he arrived home. They asked if he shot it too close to the road, he said no, and they left.. So i dont believe there would be any forgiveness there with a group of curius people around. There is no cell phone contact in the moutains, and the fish and game couldnt have gotten there before it would have disaapeared without dispatching it. Not much i could have done in my mind at that time.. We can anilize it to death after the fact... Ive done my good deeds and made my mistakes, but this was a tough one, i still dont have the answer.. dave

quote:

I was just mentioning that the throat was long, or at least longer than I expected.

When I had Bobby Hart make up a 338-06AI for me, I told him to throat it for 250gr Nosler Partitions, as that was the heaviest bullet I considered using and didn't want to end up having to push the bullet into the case body, reducing powder capacity, if it was throated for a lighter weight bullet. He did EXACTLY what I wanted.

Didn't YOUR gunsmith cut YOUR chamber to YOUR intended bullet specs? If YOU didn't tell him YOU intended to use Berger 190VLD's, no wonder YOU have such a bullet jump.

I would have the barrel set back one thread and re-cut. From the gist of your story I'd say you need to foot that bill, not him.

onefunzr2...

Yes, I do believe he did cut them to specs. Again, I don't have a problem with the work I received. For a guy like me just to be able to afford and have that caliber of work done? I am ecstatic. Next time I will also measure the length of bullets including making up a dummy round as Westpac has mentioned.

Oh, and I agree. I have don't have issues at all...if I choose to have the barrel setback and recut after shooting the rifle for awhile? I would foot the bill! I think it is only fair.