Hey guys, this is my first post. So far this looks like a really friendly place.

Anyway, my question is about a mill for sale in my area that I would like to buy for general gunsmithing not including rifling or barrel work.

It is a Jet JMD-18, a mill-drill. It has a 2 HP 220v single phase motor and weighs in at 740 lbs.

I have heard varying opinions on using a mill drill on firearms (steel), and basically have been told that there will be too much chatter, not a great finish and I will most likely hate using it.

I've been pointed to vert mills, which of course would work better.

Does anyone here have any experience with this type or exact mill? Or any advice period? Anything would be appreciated.

Ross

I have one in my shop and love it (JMD-18). I bought it initially so the gunsmith that works for me would stay off the bridgeports, thinking that if he destroyed it I wouldn't be out much. It turned out to be a pretty rigid machine. It will work fine for general gunsmithing (drilling and tapping, squaring etc..) If cost is not a problem I would certainly go with a knee mill, but if the price is right I wouldn't be scared of it. I have never had a problem with surface finish or chatter. ( I use good US made cutters.) The only problem I have ever had is if you are really hogging material, your head can swing around, losing your zero. So it's probably not a good choice for heavy shop work. We manufacture parts for several parts distributors, my mill gets lots of use, primarily squaring materials, and cutting dovetails before the parts are final machined using cnc. It holds tolerances and zero well, I do have a dro on it.

Chad

Thanks.

I am actually new to metal working and gunsmithing.
Basically what I see myself doing and what I want my first few projects to be are complete the less then %100 percent receivers.
A few other things I would like to try are cosmetic applications such as checkering, porting, grooving, beveling and so on.

Thing is, I don't know if this stuff is considered heavy or not. Basically, I don't know exactly what I would be capable of doing.

What could I realistically expect to get done with this unit? And what gun smithing applications would I need the knee mill for? What kind of precision could I expect?

Once again, thanks for the insight. The price will fall between 650 and 800 btw, machine is a 99 with no use since 01.

Welcome to AR. If you use the search function you should find some recommendations on similar machines. You might check those out before you take the plunge.

THe mill/drill is a very poor machine for other than drilling. Well, I don't even like them for drilling if there are other options. Can it be made to work? Yes. Is it optimum? No. Is it at least "passable?" Just barely, by the skin of its teeth for some easy jobs. Other jobs, not even possible. Can you do top notch work on it? No way.

There are several brands of small knee mills if you must have something with a small footprint due to space constraints. Used machines are everywhere and you just have to be looking for them. Not saying you will see one every week, but they are easily found. I strongly suggest you forget about the mill/drill and look for a:"

Van Norman
Millrite
Index (I think they made some small mills)
CLausing
and some others I can't think of right now.

All of the above are true milling machines, as opposed to a drill press being pressed into service as a mill. Do you have to ahve soemthing small? Getting a full size knee mill is not usually too much more than the smaller mills above, and they give you greatly increased abilities and ease of use. I know people who have put full sized Bridgeports and Bridgeport clones in their basements. Space is rarely the problem than folks think it is. But before you have experience, you don't know that.

Also, don't be afraid of 3 phase power. THis is something else that at first would scare me away, but now I see it as just a different socket.

A common thing for an inexperienced person to do is be afraid of not knowing what to look for in a used machine, so they buy soem cheap import. This is totally understandable and most folks, including myself, were steered by this logic in the beginning. But with a just a little experience and/or education, we learn that it is easy to inspect a used machine.

I say get a full sized knee mill. If you get a clone without DRO, Kurt, and powerfeed, then they can be found very cheaply. All Bridgeport clones are not created equal. And just because soemthing is a Bridgeport does not mean it is good. Many of them have been wrung out and need rebuilding. They can be made right, but it takes money. But serviceable Bridgeport clones can be found for under $1k. These will do all you speak of and much more.

Right now you don't know enough to be buying by yourself. Wow, that looks harsh when it popped up on the screen and that is not at all how I am trying to say it. The way I am thinking it in my head and would tell you if you were here is this-slow down, learn what different machines can do, figure out what YOU need a machine to do, then start shopping to see what are real world prices on machines that fit your needs. After you have figured out what you need and what are realistic prices, then you are ready to shop. There is no shortage of any of these machines. They are everywhere if you know how to find them. That is part of your education. Figuring all of this out will save you a lot of money, headache, and heartache.

The best way for you to learn is to start researching various machining sites. To be honest, gun sites like this are usually not too hot when it comes to equipment questions. Not saying all of your answrers would be bad, but there will be fewer answers from folks with a lot of experience, and those are the guys you need to hear from right now. When you go to a site you have never visited before, do a search for every thing you want to know. I promise you, any question you have has been asked literally hundreds of times on boards with a long history. Just do searches on the net and start finding info. I suggest reading sites where professional machinists run, but I suggest only searching and leanring there. Many of them are kinda touchy about home shop guys asking the same question over and over on a board set up for pros. Just play it by ear or you can make some enemies in a hurry. The search function should be your new best friend for the next month.

Good luck!

edited to add-just about any clapped out Bridgeport or clone will still do better work than a bench mill. And the price is usually about the same. Yesterday a guy offered me a 10x54 Enco for $1k and I am sure it would have gone slightly lower. THat is just one example from the past 24 hours-lots of deals out there.

Oh, one more thing. After your education when you start to search for the machine that fits your needs, do not be worried about a machine that is on the other side of the country. Very easy to get anything moved these days, though I personally place a premium on machines that are close to me.

Lagun is another choice .A very close friend who by trade was a tool & Die man had one of these an older model . He designed and built proto types of all different machines for the Japanese with it for 25 Years . I strongly suggest looking for a " Used machine " from some one who is retiring or an auction site / With tooling !.

I made a MAJOR mistake purchasing a New Lathe then had to purchase new tooling . The TOOLING is what's going to cost you !.

I was offered his Lagun a few years back with 35 years worth of tooling ( Everything under the sun ) It required TWO Storage units 20X24' to contain all of his shop cabinets with the tooling inside !. I gracefully declined .


http://www.lagun.com/products/vertical-mills/ftv-4l.html

Thanks for the advice, every little bit helps.

While you were typing I was buying though.

The price he was asking was dirt cheap, and when I asked him if I could see how it works he gladly demonstrated.

He picked up a piece of steel bar stock and proceeded to cut what looked about like a 4x4mm keyway the whole length on the scrap piece.... relatively easily. He also showed me how a tslot was milled, and it appeared what little he did was working pretty effectively. He let me try on a smaller piece of aluminum and I cut it in two.
The finishes looked fairly well in my opinion.

Basically, the bits he was using were larger/deeper then anything I would use on a frame or receiver except the keyway, and I was impressed with what the machine could do so I bought it. He told me I would need to use the oil/lube/coolant he was using if I wanted the best possible finish.

It was a good trip, he has a full blown machine shop in his garage, along with what looked like a new to him "excell=o". He showed me some work he had done with it and it was very precise, almost looked professional.

I will have a 80% 1911 frame on the way tomorrow, and I could have it setup and ready to be cleaned and so on tomorrow.... I'll post some pictures!


Ross

Ross, I think you'll like it. Don't let people tell you it's junk, I have one, I use it, and it works. I know people who can't do quality work on a 50k dollar hwacheon, and others that can create art using harbor freight machines. As you learn about cutting speeds and feeds your work quality will get better. I went through this same thing shopping for a cnc mill. Basically I was told I couldn't manufacture gun parts or cut octagonal barrels without a fully enclosed 5 axis vmc with probing cycles, tool changers and high speed spindle. Of course thats not within a gunmakers budget so I bought what I thought I needed and am very happy with it. In the end you know what you want to do with the machine, and if you outgrow it, replace it. If you get bored with it you don't have a 2500lb mill sitting in middle of your garage. Good luck with it.

Chad

The problem the the Jet JMD-18 mill drill and others like it for me is that there is no knee.

I have a 600 pound R-8 collet Delta Rockwell 21-100 vertical mill.

My brother has a 600 pound M2T Clausing 8520 vertical mill.

Randy Ketchum has a Bridgeport.

They all have knees so the work can go up and down in .001" increments.


My brother and Randy are really good on the mill and I am terrible, but I got the cost of my mill back many times over in the last two weeks making aircraft electronic test fixtures.

What does it all mean?
The mill will get used for more than gunsmithing. Get a real mill.

I agree. You need rigidity to produce precision work and a machine like the JMD-18 would have too much flex in the column making precision machining on critical gun parts, frustrating.

Extending the quill to feed the cutter only adds to the instability of the set up when milling material. For the utmost in rigidity, the quill should be tucked and locked into the head of the machine, and the cutter and material fed using the knee. That's just my opinion.

The one thing I did pay attention to when my friend was doing tool & Die work , was the precession in which all of his tools were capable of as well as him self !. That of course was due to his ability not only to understand proper set ups but also in the extra lengths he took to purchase class 9 bearings and replace Items he felt were inferior !. Picky bastard !. When computers came along he taught him self and I what and how to use them not for playing silly games on but MAKING MONEY with them !.

It paid off BIG time for him as he did design and proto types for HP , as well as converting most of their in house Cad design which was ME over too Auto Cad !. Funny story HP couldn't machine one single thing ! , couldn't even send a drawing to an out side machining operation !. Their soft ware and drawings were incompatible with REAL world machining programs . GO FIGURE !.

machines cost $$$ so when considering purchasing them , go with the very best you can afford and have a PLAN on the recovery of your investment NO matter what other type of work you really want to do .

That being said I couldn't agree more with the others a REAL MILL is just that !. There is NO substitute for QUALITY WORK !.

He also " Built " my lathe , two 10.5 Ft. long H Beams 3/8" web ,bolted spot welded surfaced ground flat Custom Aluminum through feed head stock 8"-10" Chuck 3 & 4 Jaw swappable . Modified # 4 MT tail stock which he gave me after making the modifications to it for a 20" swing !. Clear view O ring sealed pyrex glass port on the head stock , complete oil bath immersion . Just for watching the gears and bearings going around and around if one gets bored watching the work doing the same thing !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

if you want a "cheap" new mill, stay away from the rong fu (that's the chinese maker's name) round column and fit the SQUARE column, that is rigid and repeatable.

jeffe

I think the drill/mill was the wise decision for me.

It might turn out that it isn't good enough to do everything I want to do, but it might turn out that I am not good enough to do what I want to do.

If I find that I am good at it, and I enjoy it and want to continue.... I won't let my machine hold me back, this is a cheap machine that will be easily replaced.

On the other hand, if I decided I don't want to continue the hobby, I don't have a 1 ton $5000 machine that's hard to get rid of.

At the price I got this machine for I could probably turn a profit.....

quote:

Originally posted by Ross E.:
I think the drill/mill was the wise decision for me.

It might turn out that it isn't good enough to do everything I want to do, but it might turn out that I am not good enough to do what I want to do.

If I find that I am good at it, and I enjoy it and want to continue.... I won't let my machine hold me back, this is a cheap machine that will be easily replaced.

On the other hand, if I decided I don't want to continue the hobby, I don't have a 1 ton $5000 machine that's hard to get rid of.

At the price I got this machine for I could probably turn a profit.....

If nothing else, you'll have a pretty good drill press. Good luck!

If something smaller than a Bridgeport makes more sense for you, look at the Jet JTM-830. http://www.jet-cnc-machinery.com/Tools/JTM830.html
Grizzly makes something similar.

That is the biggest thing I could get into my basement and I've been pleased with it. The head can be lifted by two guys, and the table came off, leaving a 400-something pound base to slide down the stairs. Is it perfect? No, but for the one-off, small stuff I do on guns and the live steam locomotive I'm building, it's been great. As others have mentioned, the knee is an indispensible feature. It is often necessary to change tooling without losing position, and the knee lets you do just that.

There are over 100 gun forums I have visited on line and this is one of the best for gunsmithing, but for machine tools, rec.crafts.metalworking newgroup is on the internet not just in newsgroups, but available on the WWW through Google groups:

Here is a date listed search for "mill" in the title:
search


Another mill search with Enco and Bridgeport in the body

If you do your own searches, IIRC you can find some guys that rebuild mills and scrape down the ways to get the accuracy back. They say that the new Enco mills are better than the Bridgeports ever were.

Well, I appreciate everyone opinions and input.

I have the mill/drill set up now in the garage, but before I do anything with it I am going to clean very throughly and make sure it is in tip top working condition.

I will post a picture of it when I have it all ready to go..... but it's not a beauty like some of the ones I have seen on here.

Ross,

ALWAYS WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES!!

I have been a machinist and a tool/mold maker for 16 years. Here is my $.02 for what it is worth. If you take light cuts(NEVER more than .01-.015") and take your time you will be fine. Keep your RPMs low will help reduce chatter. Use a quality high sulfer cutting oil or a synthetic water soluble coolant. Don't be afraid to flood your work. If you are not already familiar with an Indicol and a .0005" indicator-BECOME SO!!!!!!!!

Indicate everything (within .0005"). With practice you will be able to "dial-in" a fixture for your action or whatever else you may decide to work on in a few short minutes. Take a course at a local community college, get a Machinery's Handbook. Learn from every machinist you talk to. All will have little tricks they learned that they will be willing to share, and you will learn as you go.

ALWAYS WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES--NO EXCEPTIONS!!

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. I am always willing to help expand the trade.

PS stay away from carbide unless absolutely necessary-carbide does not cut, it rubs and imparts much more stress than high-speed steel
Andy