i get asked more times than i want to count, who i would recommend as a gunsmith. My canned answer is always, what do you want him to do? There are varying degrees in this time honored occupation as there are in any profession. Some guys can only bumble along and fix a 22 single shot, while other can create a work of art that will be appreciated for centuries. I guess its the latter that i refer to as a gunsmith. The are few around now and there were few around before. The man that has the hands of a surgeon and the heart of an artist is a rare quantity. I don't refer to the guy who can buy an action, screw on a prefitted barrel and throw the whole works into a prefitted plastic stock as a gunsmith. He is a parts assembler. The true gunsmith may be working in a garage or for a large factory, but the skills and imagination are his and his alone. Some things can be learned and some can't. Some things can be taught and some can't. The artists that work in the factories such as beretta, the bill soverns, jim kobes, roger biesens, jerry fishers etc. aren't people who are made, rather they are born. And to those who are my hat is off to them. they posess a gift I cannot have. Thats my idea of a gunsmith.

Someone who works on guns and has no concept of time.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i get asked more times than i want to count, who i would recommend as a gunsmith. My canned answer is always, what do you want him to do? There are varying degrees in this time honored occupation as there are in any profession. Some guys can only bumble along and fix a 22 single shot, while other can create a work of art that will be appreciated for centuries. I guess its the latter that i refer to as a gunsmith. The are few around now and there were few around before. The man that has the hands of a surgeon and the heart of an artist is a rare quantity. I don't refer to the guy who can buy an action, screw on a prefitted barrel and throw the whole works into a prefitted plastic stock as a gunsmith. He is a parts assembler. The true gunsmith may be working in a garage or for a large factory, but the skills and imagination are his and his alone. Some things can be learned and some can't. Some things can be taught and some can't. The artists that work in the factories such as beretta, the bill soverns, jim kobes, roger biesens, jerry fishers etc. aren't people who are made, rather they are born. And to those who are my hat is off to them. they posess a gift I cannot have. Thats my idea of a gunsmith.

So then, whats your definition of a Doctor? Gunsmiths wear many hats just like other professions. You can't be serious that a guy that makes his living fixing 1911's and other pistols isn't a gunsmith.

Hopefully a truthful sort who knows what they're doing on your weapons.

I always prefer the truth to a lie .

If you can't get to it for 8-18 months just lay it on me . Don't rub the wool in BS and tell me I'll get right on it .

I believe Jim Kobe fits as a respectful GunSmith !. A lot of people seem to hold him in hi reguard my self included .

Hope to send him some work as soon as I find the pieces .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

A highly-skilled machinist who promises your job back in a month, but actually gets it done in a year or two-- or three. And that's gettin' it done like greased lightning...

You might be a gunsmith if...

You have great mechanical skill and artistic vision but choose to sit on your ass for months on end instead of putting your talent to work.

You would lie to your mother to get a deposit or cash advance.

You would sacrifice your marriage and your family's financial stability to persue the pipedream of working on guns - without actually WORKING on guns . . . or working on anything.

You can rationalize lying to your customers because you believe the crap about how being an "artist" relieves you of having to adhere to ethical norms and behavior.

I'm sure I'm leaving out some good ones. Other satisfied gunsmithing customers will have to help me out.

Well,

One of the best gunsmiths I know is Westpac.

I specialize in rifles, mainly Mausers, he can fix anything.

Every gun build that I want done is never time critical, I have other guns that I can use. I always ask the gusmiths when do you want me to send you the action/parts etc. so I can buy what I want at the correct time.

Almost without exception they tell me "Go ahead and send it now and I'll get to it pretty quickly and get it out within 90 days or so". The shortest turnaround time for an action blueprint/tuning, barrel install, trigger job, etc. has been 6 months.

I just had one gunsmith tell me last September that he could probably take my gun after the first of the year but I haven't got a ship to date from him yet.

(It's only April and it's still technically "after the first of the year" but maybe I should have asked "what year?")

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Well,

One of the best gunsmiths I know is Westpac.

I specialize in rifles, mainly Mausers, he can fix anything.

shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone he has been taking longer to get my stuff done these days

My idea of a gunsmith is a fellow who does great metal work and answers your questions, no matter how silly they are. He's the kind of guy who has solutions, not a line of Bull Shit.
A Gunsmith ought to be able to stick to the delevery time and price he quoted you, when you brought him the project. The ideal gunsmith does all the above and he doesn't mind talking to you when you call.

I only know of three such Gunsmiths!

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
Well,

One of the best gunsmiths I know is Westpac.

I specialize in rifles, mainly Mausers, he can fix anything.

shhhhhhh, don't tell anyone he has been taking longer to get my stuff done these days

I heard that!

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
You might be a gunsmith if...

You have great mechanical skill and artistic vision but choose to sit on your ass for months on end instead of putting your talent to work.

You would lie to your mother to get a deposit or cash advance.

You would sacrifice your marriage and your family's financial stability to persue the pipedream of working on guns - without actually WORKING on guns . . . or working on anything.

You can rationalize lying to your customers because you believe the crap about how being an "artist" relieves you of having to adhere to ethical norms and behavior.

I'm sure I'm leaving out some good ones. Other satisfied gunsmithing customers will have to help me out.

Damn, Forrest, that is harsh!

I would say they're like people in any line of work. They come in three categories:

1. Good.
2. Bad.
3. Indifferent.

It's up to the emptor to do his due diligence and thereby get over the caveat.

Still, when all is said and done, you end up paying your money and taking your chances.

It is harsh, but it's the harsh TRUTH. I really love having guns built and I'll continue doing so. It's my hobby and it allows me to meet so many interesting people I otherwise wouldn't have the good fortune of knowing.

The pursuit of my hobby has also allowed me to deal with a broad cross-section of "gunsmithing's finest" - I say that with bitter sarcasm. I've been burned so many times, it's not even funny. I get around enough and hear enough to be able to avoid some of the most notorious characters but even with that advantage, I've been burned plenty.

The guys who have earned my trust (Joe Smithson, Duane Wiebe, Ralf Martini, Don Klein) are in no danger of being tarnished by the bad rap accorded to most of the gunsmithing profession. There are several other very good and very honest gunsmiths I know of but whom I just haven't had the pleasure of working with. In sheer numerical terms, these guys are wildly outnumbered by dishonest hacks (including otherwise talented but dishonest hacks).

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
It is harsh, but it's the harsh TRUTH. I really love having guns built and I'll continue doing so. It's my hobby and it allows me to meet so many interesting people I otherwise wouldn't have the good fortune of knowing.

The pursuit of my hobby has also allowed me to deal with a broad cross-section of "gunsmithing's finest" - I say that with bitter sarcasm. I've been burned so many times, it's not even funny. I get around enough and hear enough to be able to avoid some of the most notorious characters but even with that advantage, I've been burned plenty.

The guys who have earned my trust (Joe Smithson, Duane Wiebe, Ralf Martini, Don Klein) are in no danger of being tarnished by the bad rap accorded to most of the gunsmithing profession. There are several other very good and very honest gunsmiths I know of that I just haven't had the pleasure of working with. In sheer numerical terms, these guys are wildly outnumbered by dishonest hacks (including otherwise talented but dishonest hacks).

forrest, I like your "hobby"

First of all, I have this to say to ForrestB...


Second, I try to differentiate between gunsmiths, gun makers, and artists.

To me a gunsmith is a guy like Westpac...he can take any gun, study it, then do whatever it needs to make it useful, reliable, and a pleasurable tool. That's pretty much ANY gun, be it an inexpensive rimfire, or a sainted double rifle.

Then there is the guy who is a gunmaker. He is a fellow who can start with basic materials and then design, mill, file, turn, etc., both wood and metal to produce original (to him) functioning guns, whether he earns a living at it or not.

Last are the artists. My view of them may be even more harsh than ForrestB's. Of the couple of hundred (or more) self-professed artists I have met, perhaps 6-12 turned out to be people whom I would give the time of day now that I am older and time is more precious to me.

One "artist" I met was a literally starving stockmaker, who wrote a book about stockmaking and is now considered by some to be an authority. He was insulted with the work I asked him to do when he had no one else who wanted him to do anything. The only reason I gave him the work was my good friend Paul Marquart told me how hard up the kid was and suggested I have him stock some things. Then the little twit proceeded to tell me he would do my stock, but only if I never told anyone that he did the work because he didn't think it was "classic" enough to bear his name. Then he said that I couldn't afford his work anyway; if I could I would have owned enough classics to recognize "tasteful" lines. All this from a guy who couldn't, and never has learned how to, checker a stock at all! Of course, he had never seen my collections of double and single rifles, quality European built bolt action sporters, etc., most of which I had when he was still in nappies.

Anyway, I could write a book about the gun "artists" I have met in the last 60 years.
Some of them have been delightful, competent, honest men...guys like Jerry Fisher, Monte Kennedy, et. al. But most have been exactly what Forrest described, physically very talented, but also very challenged when it came to work ethics, honesty, sobriety, responsibility, willingness to study the old masters, capability for recognizing that their customers were the ones who made fine guns possible (not them), and that as their customers were the real USERS of guns, often what they asked for showed far greater real gun knowledge than the so called "arteests" could ever hope to assimilate.

All my personal curmudgeondary opinion, of course. But, I have great respect for the guys like Westpac, some few of the gunmakers, and very few of the artists.

Gawd only knows how many folks "could have" turned out a series such as Rembrandt, Frederick
Remington, and Currier & Ives each did in their respective fields. What makes them famous and respected is they actually worked hard and DID it.

When I was a kid you could tell how good a Gunsmith was by how grouchy he was.
Good Luck!

Don't really know how to address this but thanks for the accolades.

I have never considered myself a "gunsmith". People come by the table and the trade shows and ask me "are you a gunsmith?" I usually tell them that is a pretty loose term; I do work on guns. But! I only work on the stuff that I want to work on and it usually is custom stuff. I prefer to be called a guy who can work on special stuff.

There is a difference between a gunsmith and gunmaker. Gunsmiths primarily do repair jobs.

As far as who is a good one? If I had a proble mwith a broken gun I would call Malm. From what I have seen over the past few years, he has more general knowledge than anyone on the board. By a wide margin.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
There is a difference between a gunsmith and gunmaker. Gunsmiths primarily do repair jobs.

As far as who is a good one? If I had a proble mwith a broken gun I would call Malm. From what I have seen over the past few years, he has more general knowledge than anyone on the board. By a wide margin.

good god, you guys are sure stroking his ego.

Well perhaps I was wrong in my assumption that a " GunSmith " is a talented person who works on Guns !. I've only known a few personally . They how ever were the Guys who could FIX ANY GUN , even if it meant making a part for it . Maybe times have changed ?.

They didn't engrave or Carve Stocks didn't even make them . They purchased Blanks and checkered and finished them along with doing what ever " Work " was necessary on the firearm .

Artist are to fickle for my taste . Have known to many who figured they were above and beyond mere mortal status . They also had Piss Poor work ethics as has been stated .

Then there are " Tuners " ones who can make a stock gun better with know how tricks of the trade .

Then come " Stock Makers " boy are there a lot of those guys , they range through all the above !. We have ALL seen them Roughed out or 90.9% Let or 100% Finished product .

Then there are " Engravers " metal artist extortioner .

It's almost impossible to wear ALL those hats well . I'll settle for the " Guy who can Fix it "!.

A very good friend's Father , fully engraved a gun for me which shall NEVER leave my possession!.
It was only the second time he ever engraved a gun , the first was for his Son .
He had unusual talent as he worked for the U S Mint as an engraver for near 40 years .

I remember the first time I ever saw an FBI and Treasury agent . It was at his home they used to " Visit " every couple of months , so as to ensure his " Proper Employment " after retiring !.

Find a Good Person who can do WHAT YOU NEED DONE and don't be in a hurry !. They're living breathing Human Beings that have lives out side of YOUR PROJECT .

If you didn't like the work or it took to long or some other problem , FIND ANOTHER ONE next time !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Gunsmith: Noun ; a large all knowing black hole found in the back room of gun shops where you throw good money and expensive parts. all in the vain hope that a grumpy wiseass black hole will un-ass some finished product back to you EVENTUALY. maybe even what you ordered if your lucky.

some good and timely some you might as well be buying gun raffle tickets instead of placeing orders.

Guys .... You're all so lucky to actually have a resident gunsmith. Live in sunny Ireland and you won't find one left above turf. Sadly we are now at the mercy of the English variety ....

My uncle Buddy used to tell me..

quote:

There's Price, Quality, and Speed in the value triangle. You get to control only two of those.

I have said this before, and will again. Gunsmiths can range from the guy that will replace your trigger and bed your rifle to the guy that started with a barrel blank, a rough action, and a wood blank and will deliver unto ye a finished master grade rifle.

If you want a bedding job on your factory rifle, you simply aren't going to call Duane to do that. if you want a 20K rifle to be built, you aren't going to call Bubba.

and there's miles in between.
jeffe

I have a rush policy that goes:

If you want it bad, you'll get it bad. The worse you want it, the worse you'll get it!

Gunsmith quality is like buying oats...If you want nice, clean, fresh oats, it takes time and you have to pay a fair price, if you want oats that have already been through the horse, that comes faster and cheaper.

It's been interesting to read everyones definition of a Gunsmith. The Meriam-Webster dictionary defines the job as 'one who designs,makes,or repairs small firearms' which to me about describes it perfectly and has since 1588 according to said dictionary. I have known many who are well known even famous gunsmiths and I have known many who are not so good but I imagine in all my 74 years I have known less than half a dozen who could do it ALL and do it better than well. The problem is they have not recieved fame and probably will not. I went to gunsmith school and build rifles therefore according to Webster I am a gunsmith. As Shakespeare said 'what's in a name'. Interesting to see more comment about personal inter-relationships than with skill. I don't have an answer. You can pose the same question about what is a Doctor or mechanic or farmer and get exactly the same answers.

I have a pretty liberal answer for the question and it is simply anyone who works on firearms.

Now the "work" is where the all the different talents come into play.

Gunsmith's are individuals, and as such, no two are alike.

Within any given cross section of society, you will have mechanical gifted, artistically gifted, BS gifted and some just plain a$$holes/crooks. And every combination of the above. Why should gunsmith's be the exception?

Pick any other occupation and you will find the same representation.

Roy Dunlap, may he rest in peace and always be the standard by which others are measured.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
My idea of a gunsmith is a fellow who does great metal work and answers your questions, no matter how silly they are. He's the kind of guy who has solutions, not a line of Bull Shit.
A Gunsmith ought to be able to stick to the delevery time and price he quoted you, when you brought him the project. The ideal gunsmith does all the above and he doesn't mind talking to you when you call.

I only know of three such Gunsmiths!

Rusty, thanks for pointing me to one of them for my project.

Keith