Artisans....

I have lurked, posted a few times, asked questions and mainly slobbered over the most beautiful art that I have ever laid eyes on. I've been simply amazed at the breathtaking work I have seen. Like many of us we want one of your pieces of art. I'm not sure I can come close to affording one in the end...but know what? I have to try. I HAVE TO.

I am not sure where to start, but am going to purchase a VZ24 rifle today. Once you purchase the action then where do you turn to? Metal work? Or barrel? I don't want this rifle to sit on a shelf someplace. I want to be able to use it.

I was looking at barrels and barrel makers on the internet. Problem is that I am unable to determine the barrel contours I see in the pix people post of their art work on their websites, especially the Guild members. I've oggled at Mr. Worthing's site and Mr. Sovern's site extensively. Anyway...I've decided to turn this rifle into a .270 since I don't have one. So please advise me on a good barrel contour that will be pleasant, breathtaking, and functional. After having the barrel completed do you have the metal work done? I don't really know the metal artisans, etc. but have looked at their websites as well. After the barrel I am not sure where to turn to next. I appreciate any and all help you can pass along on this journey.

RenegadeRN

You get all of the metal work done, and then have it stocked. While the stock is being checkered, you have the metal finished.
Lots of good metalsmiths out there, and who is right for you depends on what you want, how much you have to spend, and when you want the finished rifle back.

Without a lot more details, we really can't help you much. Have you been thinking about those things yet and come up with some ideas?

#2 would be the heaviest barrel I would use. lighter would be good too. Everyone makes up their own dimensions for their barrels, so there is no standard.

First decide what you can spend, that will dictate a lot. Then find a path to get the best value for your money.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
You get all of the metal work done, and then have it stocked.

As to metal work it typically includes a safety, a trigger, drilled and tapped for scope mounts, bolt handle correction and then bottom metal replacement.

As to barrel, there's a lot of barrel makers priced from under $100 to over $400 and mostly they use roughly the same contour description. A number 1 contour is about .550 muzzle diameter and a #2 is about .600 etc.

Douglas even makes a "featherweight" that reproduces the featherweight barrel dimensions of the M-70.....I happen to be a fan of Douglas but that's not at all to say others are not worthy of your money.

For .30 caliber and under I like the #1 contour or the featherweight contour to help keep the weight down. These finish at 22" max however.

Oh...yea.....you'll probably want to have your bolt jeweled too.....

I would get the action ready 1st.
Trigger, timney is fine and you can do it yourself, safty, The 3 position model 70 type is what I like but the part is about 150 and probly not somthing I would do myself.
If you like the remington type side safty you can get a timney trigger witha side safty , and sunny hill makes a bolt schroud that is not to hard to put on. that has no safty provision.
That is an inexpensive way to go but to me its not as classy.
Drill and tap for scope bases about 35.00 per hole , Bolt handle, either replace , (cheaper and it it works fine) reshape , my smith charges 150.00 but it is real nice, and my personal preference.
You can spend a lot of money building on a military mauser,(DUH)
What you might consider is to find yourself a decent commercial mauser, and FN or even a MK10. OR a custom that is already drilled and taped, (put a strait edge on the holes) , and get a good look at the bolt handle.
In the 50s there were commecial operations who did this and the rifles are usually prety inexpensive.
If you really want to build somthing thats really nice and all your own Ideas, then by all means get yourself a VZ-24 and get started, but expect probably 3 years and likly minimum 5000 for a really nice job.
But you will have a beautifull .270 and probably few if any regrets when you are done...tj3006

http://www.icehouse.net/bsoverns/270_done1.jpg

Marc? I am not sure what details you might be refering to except determing what I have or are willing to spend and time I am willing to wait. I've spent an amount of time on Stuart Saterlee's website and saw the type of safety I want and likewise the way I want the bolt to look like. But I also know there are other fine custom gunsmiths who are very capable of producing works of art. I will go to the Guild website and start looking at gunsmith/metalsmiths.

Anyway...the picture in the website is the barrel contour that I've seen that I like. I don't know what that relates to in contour, so I will do more research to find the dimensions and relate it to other barrels/manfacturers lines. I know that I want the metal finish to be rust blued and the type of safety I want.

Uh....while in the neighborhood of $5000 a huge chunk of change for anyone.....the works of art ARE worth it. However, I fear that I would be a bit apprehensive to take it into the woods.
Sooo...the first thing is to decide metalwork.

I think I need to go on a book buying spree and have seen a list of those posted before. I just thought that if I could possibly help I woudl go ahead and purchase some of the parts myself and then have them sent to the 'smith. I've read where that seems to help things..even though I don't know if that is true or not.

Any help that anyone could give me would be appreciated.

And Vapodog...you have a bolt on the way.

A book buying spree and hours on the net are a great place to start.

You need to first decide what style you like. There are many, many different ways to make basically the "same" rifle. You need to figure out what you like and who makes rifles in a similar vein. Different makers will build the "same" rifle totally different. Look at Nate Heineki's Amercian Classic styled rifles and compare them to Shane Thompson's American Classic rifles. Each smith posses an incredible level of skill and are very good at translating their artistic vision to the wood and metal. (They are both better than me, that's for sure!) But the end results look different. Each are equally good, as are many other smith's American Classic creations. So until you know what you like, you can't pick someone to build what you want.

I feel strongly about this next point, but others feel equally as strongly with the opposite opinion. You will need to talk to a lot of makers and get their input and then figure out which side of the equation you fall on. I strongly feel that the absolute best rifles are made by a single person. There is one vision being translated to wood and steel. The more peopl who are involved, the more incongruant the results will be.

BUT...look at all of the Guild raffle guns, many of the guns in Steve Houghes' "Custom rifles in Black and White," many of the guns in Reno, many of the guns in Turpin's "Modern Custom Guns" and you will see true masterpieces created by a pair, or at times larger group, of custom gunamkers. So true art pieces can definitely be created with many minds working towards the same end goal.

I will readily admit this is the artist in me saying all of this. I can never be satisfued doing only themetal or only the wood. THe end result can be awesome, but I think it always misses th emark a little. And maybe it seems like splitting hairs over "totally awesome" vs. "totally awesome plus a little more." As an artist I am constantly striving to do everything a little better and get closer to actually interpreting my emoitions to the medium in question. Does not matter if it is my photography, guns, knives, back when I used to write, or even me welding a tractor muffler for a friend last Saturday. I know this is probably all clear as mud by now. Sorry about that!

To condense that last part-as a true artist I feel the only way a work can truly be the best is for one person to do it all. Art is something that evokes an emotion, and trying to get 2 people to feel exactly the same thing is impossible. But the right 2 good smiths can turn out rifles better than I can by myself. For now at least, but I will catch them!

One thing I am VERY firm about is to reduce the number of "cooks" to the bare minimum. This means 2 or at most 3. Piece-mealing a rifle is a great way to have a project that runs 2x to 3x as long as the original schedule, usually busts budgets, adss cost and risks in extra shipping, etc. etc. I say ideally pick one person to do it all. If that will not work, then pick a metal person and wood person. Possibly go with a metal finisher if absolutely needed.

When going with multiple smiths, you need to talk to them and see how they work together. Not that they will be in the same shop or anything, but you need a congruent theme in the finished product. Ideally, they will know each other and have doen work together in the past. Like with a project of any kind, all sorts of problems are likely to pop up and folks who think along the same lines and have worked together before will do a better job of sorting it out and keeping schedule and budget hits to a minimum. But more important is the already mentioned congruent theme of the the rifle. I have seen rifles with very good metal work put in stocks that were top notch. But they really looked like they did not go together.

Sending parts here, pieces there, is a sure schedule killer. Most of this work has to be done in a linear fashion. Let one guy get behind for whatever reason and you are screwed. Picking little pieces here and there and trying to save $20 on the total project cost by buying soemthing yourself will often gum up the works. I am not saying you are or will do this, just throwing out that warning. If you trust a smith enough to build your dream rifle, listen closely to his advice on parts and procurement. It soudns lik eyou really are unsure of a lot of things, so my advice is to not buy anything. When you get the maker/makers you like, have them get the things needed to create the end product. Plus that way it is in their scope and they can deal with the headache if soemthing goes wrong.

Given what I have done in previous lives, I have learned the value of having one true project manager. Either the metal or wood guy needs to be steering the boat if you want the best possible outcome.

There are millions of details to be worked out. This is what I was getting at in the first post. You need to pick a style-American CLassic, American Contemporary, English, Classic Teutonic, Contemporary Teutonic, or whatever. Then you need to figure out what kind of wood you like. You need to figure out what you want for sighting equipment-scope and mounts, and if you want iron sights, what you want like in that catagory too. All kids of things like butt treatment, grip cap treatment, sling swivels, etc. etc. etc.

In a previous life I was a project manager on large international projects. I absolutely LOVE planning things and bouncing ideas off fo folks and just getting heads together to see what we can come up with. Some clietns like to do that and they have definite ideas of what they want. Others don't and leave it up to you to just build them a nice rifle. Both scenarios are fine. you need to be sure to figure out which type of person you are and get hooked up with a maker who is compatable with your style. A smith who is going to do it their way period and not too talkative may not be the best fit for a client who like to talk about things and brainstorn for new ideas. A maker who wants to be told exactly what someone wants and does not feel comfortable making big decisions without client buy-in may not be the best fit for a client who says, "make me a classic British rifle in .375. Just handle it and my budget is $XXX."

So there are some ideas. Read, read, read and get a good feel for where you want to wind up. Then find folks whose style will get you there. And many of theses details are things to discuss with your maker. Ask questions here to get a feel for things, and then greatly trust the mamker to steer you in the right direction. Remember, you like their ability to translat emotions into guns, so closely listen to and value their opinions.

Good luck!

I just remembered a book to reccomend to you, and anyone else contemplating commissioning a custom gun.

The American Custom Gunamkers Guild has a book named "Realizing Your Dream: A Client's Guide to Building a Custom Gun." It is $20 and availible on their web site:

Guild book link

In many ways, Marc is correct.

Find a 'Smith whose work you admire, can fit you into his time frame, and can afford.

A VZ 24 is a good start, but let the 'Smith take over from there. Feel free to discuss the details, but... please don't be one of those who insist on accumulating various parts, and delivering them to the 'Smith.

Part of what you're paying for is the 'Smith's vision, and how well the various parts function together as an integrated whole.

Both mechanically and aesthetically.

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
First decide what you can spend, that will dictate a lot. Then find a path to get the best value for your money.

honestly, for a first timers question, dempsey have the most profound advice.. what do you want to spend.. what do YOU want the rifle to be, and then figure out the middle.

jeffe

Renegade-

Another thingto consider is that your taste will change as your appreciation for the art matures. I don't know how much you have been following custom guns for how long, and how much direct expose you have had to custom guns of different grades.

As you learn more, you will learn what to truly appreciate when looking at a custom firearm. Your taste will mature over the years as you have seen more and more guns of higher and higher grade. Firearms you like today will look a little crude a few years down the road.

Good works of art will be timeless. If you search for th erecent posts by Michael Petrov on Springfield and Mauser sporters, you will see some true works of art that were created 80+ years ago. They still look good today. These rifles follow good, sound, artistic principals. Some of the rifles in the thread did not look to hot. These did not follow sound artistic principles.

It would serve you well to read a little about art theory and principle. You started this thread by calling artisists, and that is a great way to look at it. A custom rifle with a wood stock should be a work of art if it is to be timeless. Avante garde passing trends of the week wind up looking pretty dorky just a couple years down the road. It's like watching the Brady Bunch and looking at how their house is decorated. If you don't want your rifle to look like the Brady Bunch furniture in 10 years, choose a maker who really is an artist.

The whole "value" discussion can fill pages, and in the end needs to be justified only by the client. I will say this. I have NEVER had a person say they regretted spending an extra $XXXX after a project was compelted and down the road. I have heard COUNTLESS TIMES "I wish I would have gone ahead and spent the extra $XXXX when we were building this rifle!" When amortized over the life of the rifle, an extra grand or three is not much when oyu look at how many hours you will get to enjoy the rifle. And remember, we shoot the rifle more on the range than in the field, and handle the rifle in the house more than on the range. So even the time you spend cleaning the rifle, showing it to friends, or just handling it yourself is time that you can appreciate the extra money you spent.

Another thing to consider is adding some engraving. I have decided to have all of my personal future guns engraved. Even adding a mere $600-700 of engraving makes a pretty big difference. If you bump it up to $1000-1200, you can really have a nice bit of engraving. I am even considering refinishing a battered vetran of mine. If I do, then I am going to have her engraved. Nothing too fancy-just the $700 or so range.

Don't worry about being afraid to use it in the field. I know people who take six figure guns in the field. $5000 would not even be a deposit to hold their slot in the gunmaker's rotation. They don't take them to salt marshes where they can't be cleaned for 4 days, but they do get used and banged around. That is how the guns are designed to be used. The more you use it, the more memories you will have and the more you will appreciate it. Also, if you skimped and pinched too many pennies on the build, then you will think about it eveyr time you use the gun. I hav ehad so many people tell me this a couple of years down the road. It all goes back to regretting not spending just a little bit more and really getting what they want.

Marc,

Can you recommend some books to purchase? The books I had written down were more about taking them apart and servicing them vice artistic works.

The 3 I already reccomended above are where I would start. They are:

"Custom Rifles in Black and White" Steven Dodd Houghes
"Modern Custom Guns" Tom Turpin
Realizing your Dream" American Custom Gunmakers Guild


Others I can reccomend are:
"The Custom RIfle Gazzette" this was a quarterly publication that only had one issue. They still have my money for the charter subscription they screwed me out of. You can pick these up at Gunnerman's Books

The 2 main Mauser books have pictures of older sporters in them. Not a lot of custom stuff, but it is decent:

"Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles" Speed
"Mauser Bolt Rifles" Olson

Michael Petrov has a great historical book about custom gumaking in the country before WWII:

"Custom Gunmakers of the 20th Century"

Nothing compares the Houghes Book. This is doubly so if the reader is a gunmaker. it is th eonly book out there that shows the detailed work of the masters. It gives a gunmaker a yardstick by which they can judge their own work. It also gives prospective buyes an idea of what top quality work really is. Every night beofre going to bed a pray a special prayer that Hougehs will publish a second volume in the near future.

"Mastery of Wood and Metal" by Turpin is a very good book in my opinion. It covers the David Miller Co. and shows how Miller and Crum build their rifles. This dynamic duo are the only folks I know of who get $40,000 for their unadorned base model rifle. I don't know how much it will help you with different styles, but it gives a great idea of the steps required to make a custom rifle. This may or may not intrest you.

Read Nate's entire web site:

Nate Heineke's web site


Read all of the maker's web site in the American Custom Gunamers Guild, as well as the Guild web site. Order the book about comissionaing a custom rifle while you are there:

Guild Web site

Just surf the net and look at the biggest names in gunamking web sites. try to get a feel for the differences between what the big guys do and what the rest of us do. Try to find old Rifle magazines and read the Custom Corner each month. Occasionally Precision Shooting and The Accurate Rifle (now defunct) will have articles about custon rifles.

Sports Afield had a Custom Rifle issues this year and last year. Call them and see if you can buy back issues of them.

If you were to do as I do and pray for a Volume II of Steve's book each night, it couldn't hurt!

It is several months off, but I also reccomend going to the Guild Show in Reno next January. Granted, i doubt if you could find soemone to make you a whole gun for $5k, but it would be a gret aexperience. You can see true masters' work and can see many different ways to interpret the same style of rifle.

Plus the SCI Show is that week, as well as the American Bladesmith Society annual Show. I was an apprentice smith in the ABS before and those guys can really make some knives that few can imagine.

You could make a short trip to Reno and see a lot of world class work in several fields.