I had a situation when one of my hunters mistakenly loaded a 7mm Rem Mag cartridge in a 7mm RUM rifle and pulled trigger twice.

The situation started when he was preparing for a pig culling shoot. He already had 5 boxes of correct 7mm RUM. but felt that 5 more boxes would be sufficient. He sent his wife to the sporting goods store where she picked up 5 additional boxes of 7mm Rem Mag, naturally at a better price.

He never checked the ammo, until after the fact. I was next to him when he attempted to take out a pig. The 7MM Rem Mag. chambered easily in the 7mm RUM. He pulled the trigger twice with the very audible "click", and exclaimed that something was wrong with his new rifle.

I ask him to hand me his rifle and discovered the ammo differential.

The 7MM Rem. Mag cartridge was easily extracted as the 700 Rem bolt held the cartridge firmly.

The real question is: Wouldn't it have been devastating if the cartridge fired having been firmly held by the bolt extrator in place? I would think so, with all of the excessive head space, etc. I'm sure that Remington is aware of this and should more boldly mark or I.D. their ammo boxes. If a dummy can make such things happen, it will!

Your expertise on this matter, please. Thanks in advance.

Geoff

I disagree. Why should Remington be liable for your hunters "lack of awareness"? He is the idiot stuffing the wrong ammo into his own firearm, isn't he? How does one not notice the difference between a 7mm Rem mag and a 7mm Ultra? Isn't there a belt on the former? Wouldn't that be a tip-off that your chambering the wrong cartridge?

If you "LOOK" at a box of Remington ammo, it says, "Notice: These cartridges are adapted to and intended for use in arms in good condition, ORIGINALLY CHAMBERED AND DESIGNED FOR THESE CARTRIDGES." (paranthesis and capitals are mine).

Face it, your hunter is a MORON. And if you think Remington is resposible for his stupidity, then you're not very far behind him.

My opinion, humbly offered.

Super Bon Bon

Bob Bon is correct. Remington factory ammo is CLEARLY marked on the end of each box. Your hunter was at fault, not Remington. Geoff, any hunter that makes the most basic error of not knowing which ammo he is loading in his rifle is negligent at least, seriously dangerous at the most . I for one would never let that particular hunter carry a rifle with a round in the chamber anywhere near my vicinity.

I have to agree with the others. The box's are clearly marked not to mention the cartridges look completely different and I find it hard a person didn't notice by just looking at it or even feeling it in ones hand. It could be a easy mistake for a novice to make, but we don't need to blame any but the shooter in question.

It is beyond me how the Remington extractor was able to latch onto a cartridge case head that is shorter than the chamber it is in. The 7MM REM mag case will fit completely inside the 7MM Rem ultra chamber, leaving nothing sticking out.

There is no way to keep someone that doesn't pay attention from doing something stupid. One of the major problems now is that the consumer wants the manufacturer to do all the thinking for them. Let's see most 20 ga are yellow and 12 ga is red. People time and again put a 20 in a 12. Many a gun owners need to have a lot of education. They do not have a clue.

I used to think I couldn't do anything stupid. But I did a few months ago.

Somehow, I got a 7mm STW cartridge in a box for .300 RUM (MTM plastic box). I fired the 7mm STW and noticed it sounded almost like a dud. Bolt extraction was pretty stiff. The case was swelled good right above the belt, but nothing really happened of consequence.

I don't think anyone is immune from doing something stupid, we just hope to reduce the possiblitys as much as possible.

quote:

I don't think anyone is immune from doing something stupid, we just hope to reduce the possiblitys as much as possible.

So very true.
Since AZ admitted to his brain cramp I’ll share mine. One time I fired a .280 in a7mm mag and man was it exciting. When the smoke cleared I came out of it with small powder burns around my right eye and the rifle suffered a broken extractor. The case was split from the shoulder down to the web. It wasn’t my rifle and needless to say my buddy was right proud of me. The simple truth is right when you think you are beyond fault is when fault finds you. In my instance we had several rifles out and I was not paying close enough attention. It happens and I consider myself lucky not to have been injured worse. As far as the guy chambering 7mm mag in a 7mm ultra I can se it happening but I bet it want happen to me again. Experience counts.

Shawn

Although the Rem Mag might fit totally into the chamber of an ultra, remember the ultra has the rebated rim, and the difference in rim diameter between the two is .002". so, the round might still have the ability to be gripped by the extractor loosely. Luckily it was loose enough to keep the firing pin from striking the primer effectively.

Unfortunately, lack of attention to detail gets the best of us sometmes. Luckily, nobody was hurt in this situation. But, I am pretty positive I would be done handling my weapons for the day if I were in that situation, even though it only went click.

Thanks guys for the input. I, perhaps did not make the question clear. I am not in any way attempting to place responsibility on Remington on the use of incorrect ammo.
The situation I mentioned is an example of Murphy's Law, that will certainly happen again. This is only an attempt to warn of it's possibility.

The real question is: had the cartridge fired, the result can easily be perceived. I firmly believe that the 7MM Rem. can be fired in a 7MM RUM chamber. With all of the expertise on this forum, does anyone else believe to the contrary, or agree?

The next topic is more of a statement than question. "Buck Fever" makes some intelligent men, instant morons, or at least inept klutzes. Unfortunately, that is how hunting accidents happen. The high intensity of an animal control shoot only compounds the susceptibility to mistakes. I spend more time watching the hunter than the targets.

Please keep the comments coming.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Super Bon Bon:
I disagree. Why should Remington be liable for your hunters "lack of awareness"? Face it, your hunter is a MORON. My opinion, humbly offered. Super Bon Bon

Super Bon Bon has a point, in that it is the user's responsibility to make sure he/she is using the proper ammo. (NOT Remington). But, after having worked in a gun shop one year during hunting season, I have witnessed enough scary stuff right in the store to make me (almost!!) stay out of the hunting field, just from knowing who else would be out there!! You can rely on the "average hunter" screwing something up, if it is possible to do so, as Murphy said.

It's kinda like putting diesel in the gas tank. Stupid but it happens. I once fired 5 .270 shells in my 30-06, the group was so small I couldn't see it.

Yes, it could have been catastophic. There was an article in "Rifle" magazine a few years ago about a similar situation. The shooter fired a 7mm Remington mag in a 7mm Weatherby chamber. The case sealed off the chamber as expected. The bullet did NOT get started into the bore but did block the bore. Instant bomb affect. The barrel was blown out of the action along with all of the other usual destruction. God let the shooter off with a few minor injuries, if I remember correctly.

such a rookie has no need for a rifle like the 7mm rum. or anyone else for that matter. apparently the guy had no clue that ammo his wife bought just might shoot to a different POI than what he usually uses. Sounds to me like they would be better off with a 7mm-08 or better yet with no rifle at all.

I am suprised that the Rem 700 extractor would engage the 7mm Rem cartridge in a 7mm Ultra chamber.

OMJ

One would wonder why firing a 7mm Rem in a 7mm Wby would be a big deal. I think it would of been hard to chamber as the 7mm Rem shoulder would have to be reformed.

Mike

Mike,

I think the theory of why the 7 Rem mag in a 7mm Wby chamber caused a blow up was.... The Remington case expanded very quickly, before the bullet actually entered the barrel. The bullet did move forward, though, and effectively PLUGGED the barrel. The bullet did not go down the barrel so pressure could not bleed off as it does normally as a bullet moves down the barrel.
Both cases are belted so they both "headspaced" on the belt, allowing firing and extraction. Brass was held to the rear, against the bolt.

WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN ACTIONS!

I have a friend that fired a 280 Rem in his 7mm Rem Mag Weatherby Accumark a couple of years ago. Sighting in his 7mm while his son sighted in his 280, a recipe for desaster I suppose. The case split at the head, the bullet when out the barrel and the floorplate blew completely off. Oh yeah, something else nearly blew, right into his britches...

First, Remington's mistake was naming a new cartridge somewhat similarly to an existing cartridge. It invites confusion among those who are only occasional shooters, and it is difficult to mark the packaging in a manner that clears up the confusion caused by the similar names. Of course those of us who are rifle "nuts" know the difference instantly, but it would be nice to keep the other 90% of hunters and shooters "in our corner" on firearms issues.

I suspect that in the case of actual ignition of a 7mm Remington Magnum (not 7mm Express Remington, ie. .280 Remington) in a 7mm Ultra chamber, no particular damage would be done. It is not surprising that the belt of the belted case, which is near the same nominal diameter as the base of the non-belted Ultra, could wedge in the chamber at a point that allowed the extractor to engage the rim. What is surprising is that it was not held firmly enough for the firing pin to strike an igniting blow to the primer. At any rate, the diameter of the belted case is large enough that it would in all likelihood simply swell to fit the chamber without splitting and leaking gas, resulting in a reduced velocity projectile, but nothing worse. However, if the lot of brass were somewhat hard and on the brittle side, there very well could be gas leakage; so I certainly would want to make a practice of firing this combination "just to see".

I suspect that OMJ himself is confused as to the caliber in the article he cites. If a 7mm Remington were to cause a catastrophic failure in a 7mm Weatherby chamber, it would be the 7mm EXPRESS Remington, not the 7mm Remington Magnum. A 7mm Remington Magnum, if it were forced into a Weatherby chamber, would fire and act pretty much just like a proper 7mm Weatherby. On the other hand, a 7mm Express Remington (.280) could very well split the case and cause all kinds of havoc. While it would not "plug the bore", it very well could exhibit the Secondary Explosion Effect (S.E.E.) in the oversized chamber and do the damage he describes. Just goes to show you, even rifle enthusiasts can become confused about different cartridges with similar designations.

Stonecreek,

The Ultra is about .550 across the head the belted case is abpout .530. I find it had to see a Rem 700 extractor engaging a 7mm Rem case being chambered in a 7mm Ultra.

By the way there is a good one on www.longrangehunting.com where someone is supposed to have purhased and 300 Win in the Weatherby Vanguard and then went and purchased 300 Wby factory ammo for it since the rifle was a "Weatherby" and then with disastrous results. I would love to know how he chambered 300 Wbys in a 300 Win chamber.

Mike

Mike

In reply to stonecreek, I have seen a 7mm Rem rifle that had a 7mm express fired in it. The case split most of the way on one side and near the head, it looked like it there was a belt that tried to form. The excess gas vented down through the magazine box, bulged the sides of the box enough to splinter the stock on both sides and bent the floorplate. The shooter was unmarked, just scared. As far as I could see the rest of the gun was ok. I don't remember what kind of rifle it was, but would guess something with a claw extractor that would hold the smaller case against the firing pin.
The guy said he asked for 7mmexpress at the store but never bothered to look at the box before shooting (IDIOT).
I asked him for the case, and he was more than happy to be rid of it. I still have it after all these years. I use it as a graphic example of "not paying attention" for anyone just starting out hunting or reloading.