what's the best finish for a chrome moly action, strictly from a viewpoint of protecting it from the elements.
I'm thinking the action will be bead blasted for a matt finish, but after that, what's best, parkerizing, teflon coating, some new miracle finish I haven't even heard of yet?
What's tough and protective?

Thanks, Rob

Why in the hell bother? Because a few "gunsmiths" don't like working with stainless?

Millions of gun owners are not wrong, a few big mouths notwhitstanding.

I think Robar's Polymax is worthy of consideration. I'm also of the opinion that you'll get what you pay for..............

Recoil Rob, rust bluing will beat them all. I have yet to see a paint on finish that does not flake off. A good caustic blue is fairly good but it doesn't hold a candle to a good slow rust blue.

Beg to differ in the abilities of rust blueing's abilities to defeat a quality polymer finish.

FYI Finish Specs.........

Should you wish even more.

Finishes Redeux............

have a friend who is on his third coat on his rifle. The manufacturer suggested that he take off all the sharp edges so it will stick. It hasn't so far.

I believe his was Gunkote another well respected brand.

There are rust blued well used rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. I guess if we use the longevity as a test the two of us will have to come back in 50 years. , I may forget, can't even remember what I had for breakfast.

The rifles in that site did look good, but I will take a lot more convincing. Thanks for showing it.

[ 02-27-2003, 11:52: Message edited by: Customstox ]

'Tweren't my thrust to convince anyone,as the facts capably speak for themselves.

My hopes were to relay the highest standards of available finishes,as far as defeating atmospheric conditions,in the most hostile of environments.

That a lesser finish endures duty as a "Safe Queen",housed within a far friendlier environment,is little consolation to the crux of the Thread that's purpose is to seek the upper echelons of protection.

Would be all ears in a comparison of rust blueing,as compared to the finishes I mentioned.............

I'm with Big Stick on the rust blue answer. I've seen too many "pre-war vintage", "good old days", and "mightier-than-thou" blued finishes come to grief where I hunt. Beautiful, but save them for places that Gore-Tex actually works.

I have a couple of rifles and a shotgun coated with polymer that have been used hard for at least 15 years. The finish has worn through in a few spots, but no peeling or chipping. I think the process was sandblast (not beadblast), parkerize, and bake on Teflon. I admit I have no experience with the newer polymers, but hopefully the durability hasn't regressed.

On another note, what do y'all think about matte finished hard chrome plating vs. polymer. Just the durability issue, no lectures on aesthetics or glare please!

Rob, Electroless nickle in matte is very tough and of course a good parkerized job will give you all the protection you could need but it lacks the Gucci look of the newer finishes. I have no experience with the newer finishes so I can't comment on those.

I'm partial to Norrell's MolyResin myself. If you read the specs, it's some pretty durable stuff!

Think of all the things you use outside: cars, tools, etc. If rust blueing was the most effective protection against corrosion, we'd all be driving around in blued cars, right? Unless you wanted a DeLorean (sp?) with it's stainless steel body...

Sam B.
http://www.fireflyarms.com

[ 02-27-2003, 17:12: Message edited by: SamB ]

If you treat a gun as a GUN and not a back of the truck post hole digger, rust blue last longer, looks better, and gives more pleasure of ownership than anything else ever done.

If you like plastic, polymers, coatings, platings and paint......that's your choice. Just don't tell me it "better".

For *MY* use, it isn't.

Robar RoGuard. Bullet proof.

Robar NP3. Nice satin stainless look, ultra bullet proof, has lubricity (teflon in the elecroless nickel) and really slicks up things.

Molecular Metallurgy's TiN-Al coatings. Super hard, dull frosty matt charcoal finish. Super Ultra bulletproof.

I have used all of the above, and will be sending a 460 Wea (in a McBros action) to Molecular in a couple of weeks. These are not simple "painted on" finished, are very tough and satisfy the requirements for some of the gun owners.

Stainless Rifles? No one builds them? I have 5 stainless M70's in the shop now, each gets a Krieger or Pac Nor barrel. From 375 H&H to 458 Lott.

Also have several all CrMo rifles in work. From 416 Rem (in a M70) to 470 Capstick.

My knod, for apperence sake, is a rust blued (first) or matt blued (second) (two different processes) CrMo rifle in Walnut. However, ultimate finish and arrangement is at the choice of the customer.

[ 02-27-2003, 18:47: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

I just can't help it,I have to throw this out there. It is my understanding that rust bluing does not offer any protection of the metal surface at all,it is the polish on the metal before bluing that determines the rust resistance i.e. high polish-good rust resistance
SS

PARKERIZING!

Parkerizing is where it's at. A good smith set up to parkerize can produce a flat black parkerized finish. I have one and I love it.

What we have here is a difference of opinion between those who favor very high quality traditional rifles, and those who embrace newer products and ideas.

One has to admit that for real harsh weather conditions it's hard to beat stainless in a high quality synthetic stock.

Blue steel and walnut firearms are treasured by me. Used in most conditions and with reasonable care they will look good for decades.

Beats me which finish other than stainless is most durable! Guy

...and the paranoid and lazy return.

Go with the stainless and have it caustic blued. There are a few people out there that do this kind of work including Robar, and if I lived south of 49 thats where I would send it. Keep the action properly lubricated and go hunting. On another note, I have stainless custom model 70 that has been tefloned and it is holding up quite well. It has been a couple hundred miles in a scabbard and hauled up and down a few mountains without any signs of wear. The jury is still out however and we will see what more time and miles does to this type of finish.

I have a couple of stainless M1999 actions on order and when the rifles built on these actions are complete, I'll be sending them to Winnipeg to be blued. I'll let you know how that works out. I like stainless rifles, and maintained properly they are very durable and are less likely to betray you with rust. Just my observations.

chuck

How about NP3 treated stainless. It seems to me that it would help to eliminate galling problems as well as provided state of the art element protection...

500grains, I have been told by a few gunsmiths that parkerizing will walk all over rust blueing in the rust preventative department. No personal experience, just what I've been told.

chuck

I think there is no comparison to stainless. I won't buy another hunting rifle that isn't stainless. Why would you coat stainless with anything??? I just have mine bead blasted for a matte finish and call it good. Nothing to scratch or chip off, and no glare. I have one blued gun and have to replace the barrel due to rust and pitting. If you hunt with a gun and actually use it out in the elements, the blueing will rust. Unless you want to carry a cleaning kit where ever you go.

SS--

You've been seriously misinformed.

The polish of the steel determines *appearance* when hot dip blued. It's an altogether different process (and result) than rust blueing.

Rust blueing is to steel what charcoal is to wood. It's pre-oxidized under controlled conditions until there is nothing left to rust.

I'm seriously beginning to wonder how many shooters have ever *seen*, much less used and evaluated, rust blued guns. It seems there are very few.

I have nothing but extreme respect,for the two Gurus that have weighed their thoughts on the rust blue process and it's attributes.

My focal point was directed at the crux of the gent's initial query and that was: "what's the best finish for a chrome moly action, strictly from a viewpoint of protecting it from the elements."

"Best" means to me,without peer and superlative in all regards. A finish that will withstand 1000hr salt spray and 60 DAY saltwater immersion,is self lubricating,of zero maintenance and wears like iron,is a horse of another color seperate from the properties inherent to a rust blued finish.

That is not intended even remotely as a slap in the face,but I believe it to be vastly superior in all regards and should rust blueing trump those abilities I am ALL ears.

Robbie has developed numerous proprietary finishes and his Rogaurd is essentially the Holy Grail,when it comes to dealing with the most adverse of conditions in the most hostile environments.

None of that speculation and is respectfully submitted.................

SS, there is a process that involves a weak solution of muriatic acid to produce a gray finish on a previously blued rifle. It is called French gray and it is often associated with engraving but not necessarily. When you put this on a caustic blued rifle, the bluing is gone instantly. It leaves a thin slightly protective gray finish. When applied to rust bluing nothing happens, it just sits there. You have to take a wood tooth pick and rub to make the acid do anything. It is very time consuming to get to the gray texture, which is still far better then than most finishes.

On another front, I have two rifles in here for some cosmetic work, recoil pad, an oil finish on both, cut checkering and new bluing (one caustic one rust blue) on both. Owned by an Alaskan resident of 30 years who hunts hard up there. The rifles are in very good shape and he uses the two rifles for most of his hunting up there. No rust on the metal and the stocks were in good shape. Didn't look any different than someone who used their rifles "down here". The rain we get here is the same stuff, good protection is the same too. Wet humid weather does the same thing, you just need maintenance, no matter what or where.

Great topic! A kind of new versus old vibe going...

What do the folks who actually depend upon their firearms use? You know, folks like Navy SEALs, SWAT cops, etc. People for whom a rusted firearm could cost their life not just a trophy, and for whom cost is not an issue?

Sam B.
http://www.fireflyarms.com

BigStick, I have to give you the nod if you are looking at low maintenance. I am probably mired in some old ways but it is still amazing how really good rust bluing is after everything that has come and gone. I think stainless is a good way to go just as it is. I happen to like the look of stainless on a walnut stock and have built a few of them. Of course looks has nothing to do with durability and low maintenance. It just creeps into my thoughts when I think of rifles. I have a friend in Colorado that builds synthetic stock rifles and I do like the look of his (he finishes the himself). Okay call a medic, I am regressing. (or is it progressing)

Chic,

I both understand/respect your stance and your tastes.

For the most extreme of scenarios,Robbie's stuff is largely without competition and due to the high costs associated,it is largely niche oriented and most folks aren't privvy to it.

I don't believe his stuff is a lazy man's finish,but certainly is the cutting edge of what is currently available and applicable,to hard use weaponry. Same as I don't view S/S as a lazy man's route to happiness,nor do I view a chrome-lined bore in a bad light. I think as conditions magnify,the S/S makes more and more sense,same goes the high end metal finish techniques.

It would be an odd duck that didn't appreciate the aesthetics of a wonderous blueing job and in that arena it is without compare. However when talking a nitty-gritty tool of the trade,there are options available,that will run away from it in a utility role.

In my opinion,Robbie is largely standing alone in that field...................

Big Stick---

You've probably got the answer to the most protection......I haven't seen it, felt it, or tried it, yet. How expensive is it?

I could be a customer if it sticks to SS. I'm just finishing a complete custom rifle with a SS barrel. It could be the answer for the customer that wants a "blued" SS barrel.

From my point of view, rust blue does everything I need it to do.... I don't swim in anything I can't drink and never go swimming on purpose with a gun. I've stored several guns on salt water fishing boats for months at a time but it does take a wiping every week or two to maintain good condition.

I freely admit that I consider guns to be MUCH more than tools........MUCH more than something to throw around and neglect.

I don't own any *ugly* guns and have no interest in them. I demand performance and promise the proper amount of maintenence in return. That's the way I was raised and that's the way I am now.

Good wood and good steel, properly finished, does all I want to do and more.

I'm always looking for better ways to do things, though, and nearly always try what's available and then make a decision based on experience.

As it happened, I had a M-29 S&W duty gun teflon coated in 1970. The M-29 flaked teflon at every shot or three and rusted in a month (North Florida with salt exposure).

Within a month or so I traded for a rusted up M-58.
I hand polished and rustblued the M-58 and carried it for another 5 years without rust or problems except where my sweaty forearm rested on the high rise holstered grip frame. It turned dark gray but didn't rust.

I haven't owned a plated gun since.

Give them a call,bomb them with questions and get your own impression. My preference is to get info from the horse's mouth,so to speak,as there are zero miscommunications in that manner. So I'll pass you their number,rather than try to field questions on their behalf.

(623)581-2648.....................

("there" not their. I hate when I do that)

[ 02-27-2003, 23:34: Message edited by: Big Stick ]

I traded all my hunting rifles for stainless composite. Bed all the recoil lugs ( well not my T/C Encore )and used nickle scope bases and rings.
To hide SS for hunting I either used camo removable spray paint or camo tape.Rifles get a real good cleaning after hunt and paint comes off easy with spray carb. cleaner. Tape just peels off.

Skibum, my point is blueing only works if it is kept oiled. If you want to hike in the snow or rain back to camp every night in the dark and oil your gun when you get it back go right ahead. Why do you think they have dehumidifiors in gun safes? Cause in places like the south it is so humid your gun would rust unless you oil it a lot. No problem with stainless.

dogcatcher 223---

Oil a gun everytime it rains!!! You gotta be kidding!

My day to day carry revolver is rust blued and been oiled *maybe* three times since 1989. If it gets wet I wipe it off with my shirt tail......just exactly like I do my Taurus SS.

Rust blue is "sealed" when it's done with a "hard" oil.

You need a certain amount of lubrication for operation but it doesn't depend on an oily surface for rust prevention at all.

You been paying attention to the stainless gun salesmen or something?

How many factory guns come rust blued? My point is that is why stainless was introduced. It is more corrosion resistant.

JBelk,

What exactly is an hard oil? Which do you use.

Thanks,

Mike

This is what I have been told about rust bluing, JBelk, you straighten me out if I wonder off here.

When it is rust blued, it is like JB said, it is rusted, in a controlled environment though in a long process of multiple baths and drying. Did I mention the long process? This and the chemicals are involve alot of time, room and know how.

The process "grows" rust to the point it completely looks like crudded rust caked metal in it's worst form, very, very nasty looking!

The rust is somehow removed and the process starts over again? After a specific number of times it is done? This part was not completely explained to me but just the impression I got, the process was repeated several times, that I do remember.

It was explained to me that the gun will "still" rust, and just as easy as any other blued gun, it is just that with a little oil and steel wool, the rust will just rub right off and the finish will virtually last forever. In other words, the rust will not EVER permanantly harm the finnish of the gun what so ever.

So Jack, how far off am I? My smith said it would look awesome on my Ruger Magnum in 416. I just couldn't see bathing such a beautifull rifle in a slathering of nasty rust while I crossed my fingers. I cringed at the very thought if it.

I have met Nathan Meckel of Molecular Technologies (they are local), and we have talked about his titanium nitride finishes on firearms. That stuff is harder than woodpecker lips.

I have two rifles that I had parkerized about 20 years ago, and they are still going along looking fine. I was used to that finish from my military days, and it seems to combine a very functional finish with fairly easy application.

I was looking at a Smith & Wesson handgun with a Birdsong "NATO green" finish, which I think is a color phase of BlackT. I don't know how well it works, but it would make a good hunting rifle color.


This is a good thread for me, as I haven't decided what dinish to use on my proposed line of PH stopping rifles.

jim dodd