Figured that I would post here to get the expert's opinion.

Is it safe to repeatedly dry-fire my M70??

I have used snap caps, but the primers all seem to wear out or dimple after a while.

What do you all think??

Thanks!!

Dry fire "at will" striker is stopped at the rear...wish more people would do this on a regular basis.

Best practice you can get. Keep it up!

Remember how Jack O' Connor suggested this form of practice all his life?

What Duane said. If you can't dry fire it as much as you want without problems, then IMO it's in dire need of either repair or redesign. And that includes all rimfires as well. IMO if dryfiring breaks the firing pin or dings the side of the chamber then something's wrong. BAD wrong.

However certain actions DO have a rep for having problems with dryfiring, among them are 1903 Springfields, Martinis and cheap 22RFs.

The 1903s will sometimes break the integral collar on the rear of the striker nose but this can be mitigated by machining a separate threaded collar to replace the integral one. This procedure was shown in an article in, I believe, Rifle magazine many years ago and I possess the metric tooling for this conversion. BTW this conversion is also reputed to improve lock time and ignition in the 1903.

The Martini striker has two legs and is heat-treated for good performance. Sometimes this heat-treating can result in too much hardness and occasionally one of the two striker legs will crack when dryfired. Repeated dryfiring will sometimes crack the other leg, resulting in an AD if the rifle is in battery. This final cracking of the remaining leg can occur at any time, even when the rifle is motionless in its case or rack or loaded & waving around ready to shoot, so I don't recommend dryfiring a Martini or unaltered 1903 Springfield without a snap cap.

Cheap 22RFs can almost always be smithed to improve their reliability when dryfiring. Properly-designed RFs need no smithing, but it always pays to check. One of my friends has a CPA Stevens that dinged the side of its chamber when dryfired and IMO that is completely UNSAT in a rifle that costs that much.

Your M70 should be fine, and if it's not then the best time to fine out is BEFORE the hunt!
Regards, Joe

Coming from the likes of you two, I will do it until my trigger finger aches and not worry about breaking something. Thanks.

So, in your opinion snap-caps do nothing to protect the mechanism?

Only thing I could add to the above is that many fine match shooters will "dry fire" all winter long and practice by sighting at a small black dot on the basement/garage wall to further improve their offhand skills.

While we are on the topic, is it safe to dry fire double rifles? Seems there is always a pair of snap caps accompanying a double. I suppose they could also be providing a secondary purpose of fire and reload practice.

Mississipian(BTW I grew up in Vicksburg & live in Clinton), I personally would hesitate before dryfiring most doubles of any description without snap caps. The main reason is that many older doubles can have uncertain original heat-treatment and can also suffer age- and work-hardening of their steel. More modern doubles, that is ones made after WW2, are IMO less subject to these problems but some of the newer ones are still not up-to-snuff.

In the final analysis I'm inclined to trust, to really trust, ONLY those double-gun firing pins that I've personally fabbed and installed/adjusted myself. I build many single shot rifles and their firing pin designs & operation are quite similar to many doubles. In past decades I broke a few firing pins before finally learning better.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Coming from the likes of you two, I will do it until my trigger finger aches and not worry about breaking something. Thanks.

So, in your opinion snap-caps do nothing to protect the mechanism?

I wish this was true.After a month or so of frequent dry fire practice,using snap caps,you might suddenly feel the bolt get really hard to open.Now,I have not yet understood exactly what causes this but if you force the bolt open a few times,you will break the cocking piece or the part of the bolt that engages the trigger sear.I had this happen to a model 700 a couple of months ago,and had it almost happen again today on my Ruger Lott.I just stopped right there,cleaned and lubed the bolt and receiver,cycled the bolt many times,and brought it back to normal.I hope it stays that way.I have not yet had this happen with my CZ even though I have practiced alot with it.Looking at it's cocking piece you'll find it's more of a heavy duty one,but I think somewhere down the line it too will break.I wish I knew what causes this.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I wish I knew what causes this.

WEED???

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I wish I knew what causes this.

WEED???

I was going to say lack of breeding, but I refuse to be negative on this forum.

Lube every so often after dry firing. You're still causing metal to metal wear and picking up dust and debris. For the lower quality 22's I'll drop a spent round in to catch the pin. You can usually notch them for the extractor.

quote:

Originally posted by Mississippian:
..is it safe to dry fire double rifles?

no

Best mono syllable advice ever written!

In a bolt gun or firing pin pistol, its probably fine. Rim fire, no .. doubles.. HELL NO..

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Coming from the likes of you two, I will do it until my trigger finger aches and not worry about breaking something. Thanks.

So, in your opinion snap-caps do nothing to protect the mechanism?

I wish this was true.After a month or so of frequent dry fire practice,using snap caps,you might suddenly feel the bolt get really hard to open.Now,I have not yet understood exactly what causes this but if you force the bolt open a few times,you will break the cocking piece or the part of the bolt that engages the trigger sear.I had this happen to a model 700 a couple of months ago,and had it almost happen again today on my Ruger Lott.I just stopped right there,cleaned and lubed the bolt and receiver,cycled the bolt many times,and brought it back to normal.I hope it stays that way.I have not yet had this happen with my CZ even though I have practiced alot with it.Looking at it's cocking piece you'll find it's more of a heavy duty one,but I think somewhere down the line it too will break.I wish I knew what causes this.

can't let this one get away either...

the comment "brought it back to normal" is the clincher!

My best guess....it's a casting!

When I got my K95 I started with the best on intentions to not dry fire but gradually started to. Broke the firing pin after 5 years of occasional dry firing without snap caps. I now have proper snap caps.

BTW Blaser fixed it free of charge despite it really being my fault.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
In the final analysis I'm inclined to trust, to really trust, ONLY those double-gun firing pins that I've personally fabbed and installed/adjusted myself. I build many single shot rifles and their firing pin designs & operation are quite similar to many doubles. In past decades I broke a few firing pins before finally learning better.
Regards, Joe

When I say I learned better, I mean I learned how to make firing pins that wouldn't break! I've owned a number of double rifles and of course drillings and even a vierling, and I gotta say that if I feared the firing pins would break with dryfiring, then I would damnsure feel uncomfortable hunting anything dangerous with that rifle!

Sounds a lot like a double-rifle shooter might, sooner or later, really NEED that second barrel!

I think I'll stick with my single shots and bolt guns, they're not nearly so fragile. Of course a really adequate smith could easily solve the DR breakage problem but you'd think that for that much money the original makers could do a better job in the first place. JMOFWIW.
Regards, Joe

From the Merkel double rifle and shotgun owner's manual:

DRY FIRING
ATTENTION!!!!! Dry firing or pulling the triggers without live ammunition is not recommended without the use of snap caps. Snap caps absorb the inertia of the firing pins and protect internal parts from the full impact force of the hammers. Continuous dry firing can potentially damage the internal parts and render the gun inoperable.

I believe that all makers of doubles recommend pretty much the same thing: Snap caps!

Yeah, it's kinda funny how the highly-praised Euro makers can't seem to make parts that won't break(Perazzi & Daly to name just 2) and yet Bill Ruger's firing pin design has withstood literally millions of dryfirings, on view in public, in the same weapon, operated by a machine, with absolutely NO repeat NO problems of any sort! Yeah, it's kinda funny but not funny ha-ha, more like funny peculiar and rather sad.

I'll stick with my opinion that any properly designed and modern-manufactured rifle should be perfectly reliable with any number of dryfirings without snap caps. If some modern makers want to retain their inferior designs and improper heat treatments then that's their business but IMO those products are certainly inferior and therefore inadequate regardless of their retail prices.

All of my personal rifles are more than 100 years old and all except the Martinis have been dryfired many thousands of times without any problems in the last 25 years, since I learned how to make firing pins that will last. These 100-yr-old weapons are Mausers, Sharps 1878 Borchardts, Winchester high & low walls, small and large Martinis, Winchester and Marlin lever rifles, Colt SAs and L.C.Smith shotguns.

But as always YMMV and so I suggest you follow the manufacturer's recommendations. After all, they're the ones who are supposed to know their own product's shortcomings(G)!
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Yeah, it's kinda funny how the highly-praised Euro makers can't seem to make parts that won't break(Perazzi & Daly to name just 2) and yet Bill Ruger's firing pin design has withstood literally millions of dryfirings, on view in public, in the same weapon, operated by a machine, with absolutely NO repeat NO problems of any sort! Yeah, it's kinda funny but not funny ha-ha, more like funny peculiar and rather sad.

I'll stick with my opinion that any properly designed and modern-manufactured rifle should be perfectly reliable with any number of dryfirings without snap caps. If some modern makers want to retain their inferior designs and improper heat treatments then that's their business but IMO those products are certainly inferior and therefore inadequate regardless of their retail prices.

All of my personal rifles are more than 100 years old and all except the Martinis have been dryfired many thousands of times without any problems in the last 25 years, since I learned how to make firing pins that will last. These 100-yr-old weapons are Mausers, Sharps 1878 Borchardts, Winchester high & low walls, small and large Martinis, Winchester and Marlin lever rifles, Colt SAs and L.C.Smith shotguns.

But as always YMMV and so I suggest you follow the manufacturer's recommendations. After all, they're the ones who are supposed to know their own product's shortcomings(G)!
Regards, Joe

With the Ruger,it might be safer to dryfire it without snapcaps.I tried firing it today, without snap caps, and didn't have any issues.

My snaps wore out , so I tried an eraser worked a few times then tore out .

So I put in some 85 durometer urethane I happen to of had and been working for years now .

I glued it in the old snap caps with Sikaflex or 3M 5200 ( because I had them also ).



http://www.cue-inc.com/urethane-compounds.html

I have broken fring pins on doubles before drying. Dried fring tens of thousands of times with new pistols no trouble.

Remember it is only safe with unload guns. More then one person has been very embarrased from a sudden bang. or worst.

I am thinking that the snapcaps are thicker and,or harder than brass and might put a strain on the bolt cocking piece and whatever else.It might be OK to use them once in a while but if you are going to spend a half hour or so rapid dry-firing,then somthing might break.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I am thinking that the snapcaps are thicker and,or harder than brass and might put a strain on the bolt cocking piece and whatever else.It might be OK to use them once in a while but if you are going to spend a half hour or so rapid dry-firing,then somthing might break.

So it's harder on a rifle to dry-fire with snapcaps in place than to dry-fire on an empty chamber?

Shootaway, you teach us something new everyday.

I am just putting pieces of what I learned,together.I think what J.D says may be right,in that there might be some firing pins that don't break.If the firing pin can withstand the process,then there is the cocking piece that needs attention and I think snap caps are hard on them.

Besides,it probably is better to replace a firing pin then to send the rifle off to a busy gunsmith,to have the cocking piece replaced.I changed the broken firing pin on my model 700 myself with a tool I bought from Sinclair.Offcourse I am reffering to bolt actions.I did dry fire a double barrel shotgun a long time ago and made a real mess of it.Those hard firing pins did a nice job of ripping right through the barrels steel everytime I opened to recock.I would never dryfire a double shotgun or rifle without snapcaps.

I seem to remember that someone makes snap caps with a spring type primer. These may be the best kind.