I just read an old post (bored at lunch time) where people were weighing the pros and cons of stainless and blued...like we all tend to do from time to time.

it is my conclusion that to sit around and ponder having a stainless steel gun built (or to buy one)is an absolute waste of ones time.

why you ask...the trigger parts are not stainless! so who gives a shit if the barrel and action are? those two components do not cause misfires and health problems, but a trigger does.

anyone else see this the same way as me?

I guess it depends on whos guns you are talking about.

All Ruger stainless guns use all stainless parts, even the coil springs. Even some of the common hidden parts between stainless and blued guns use stainless parts.

toter

The best after-market trigger made is stainless. And they're made right there next to you in Texas.

Ray

I dont cotton to stainless what so ever, however my personal deer rifle for Indiana is stainless because thats what I had to work with at the time and I needed it in an emergency. They work out OK, just dont show the beauty of a well worn tool that blued does. As far as triggers go, they should be oiled enough that they should never rust, stainless or not.

quote:

As far as triggers go, they should be oiled enough that they should never rust, stainless or not.

The only thing my triggers ever see is Ronsonol lighter fluid. I use it to clean my triggers, and there is just enough oil in it to keep the trigger lubricated without functioning as a lint/gunk attractant.

Sam, I have been using one brand or another of the "maricale molys" for about ten years now and really like them alot. Never had any issues with them atracting dirt or gunk even when put thru some rather extream conditions by me and my clients. I also use it often on the inside of the bolt.

I quit using oil or grease on my triggers 30 years ago. I've seen too many triggers that were an accident waiting to happen, due to all the gunk. Ronsonol has been good to me. Even in the coldest weather, the trigger works like it does in the summer.

I believe Jack Belk said it best. The proper amount of lubricant won't ruin a good cup of coffee.

quote:

why you ask...the trigger parts are not stainless! so who gives a shit if the barrel and action are? those two components do not cause misfires and health problems, but a trigger does.

What do you catch from a trigger?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cheechako:
toter

The best after-market trigger made is stainless. And they're made right there next to you in Texas.

Ray:
That is certainly debatable. Also depends entirely on weapon type and end use application.

I realize your post was a bit tong in cheek and I also know, you know better.

alan

OK Alan. But most of what I said was true.

There are some very good stainless triggers. At least one of the better ones is made in Texas.

I din't see anyone mention one of the important reasons for not oiling a trigger. Cold weather will turn oil into grease. The same applies to heavy oil on your bolt.

Ray

Stainless Model 70's made in New Haven are ALL stainless, including all trigger parts. Don't know about the new FN70's.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

What do you catch from a trigger?

A bad case of lead poisoning.

BigEarl, are those bases direct from Conetrol?

I have also found the Hornady spray cleaner, that leaves a dry lube behind, to be good at cleaning triggers, and a bunch of other tight quarters as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
..it is my conclusion that to sit around and ponder having a stainless steel gun built (or to buy one)is an absolute waste of ones time.

why you ask...the trigger parts are not stainless! so who gives a shit if the barrel and action are? those two components do not cause misfires and health problems, but a trigger does.

The trigger parts on my M70's are stainless. I give a shit about the barrel and action being stainless because I don't like rust on my rifles and I don't like having to constantly wipe them down to keep rust off. I live in a humid environment (mississippi) and all my blued guns have had rust at one time or another. I don't abuse them but I don't want to have to oil them every week during the off season either.

No one has ever shown me one thing that a blued rifle will do better than a stainless rifle. If you're going to say something like "it looks pretty" then that is something that I most assuredly don't give a shit about.

My stain-less Howa 1500 is a bitch for rusting, My blue Sako L61 has had the same treatment/use & positively refuses to show rusting.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Marlin:
I guess it depends on whos guns you are talking about.

All Ruger stainless guns use all stainless parts, even the coil springs. Even some of the common hidden parts between stainless and blued guns use stainless parts.

Own a couple of stainless Rugers and each one has a blued finish magazine box.

Stainless is only rust resistant, not rust proof. Stainless used in guns is not nearly as resistant as that used in kitchen sinks or silverware. However, I see no reason not to get stainless except for looks. Under most conditions it should be less prone to rusting. Triggers on a lot of factory guns are less than optimal and often should be upgraded. The bedding, stock and overall fit and finish can usually use some help too depending on how picky someone is. Some shooters think factory barrels are only good for poking wood around the fireplace. Some factory stainless guns do have blued parts including triggers on them. The blued guns also have blued triggers, magazines and screws. If you are not where you want to be with a gun out of the box at least with a stainless model you will be further along.

Ain't anybody going to say something nice about the stock on Big Earl's rifle.

For those so afraid of gumming-up their triggers that they run them without lubricant, might I suggest what they came up with in Viet Nam to lubricate M-16's under abysmal conditions... Dri Slide molybdenum. Applied as a liquid, the vehicle evaporates leaving the moly powder in all the nooks and crannies. Nothing to cause gumming.

A thought.

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by papapaul:
Ain't anybody going to say something nice about the stock on Big Earl's rifle.

Well, I guess its prettier than the average fence post.

What is the wood, its has wonderful figure.

It's best not to lubricate a trigger, unless you consider accidental discharges and inconsistent weight of pull as desirable.

quote:

Originally posted by makeminestainless:
Stainless is only rust resistant, not rust proof. Stainless used in guns is not nearly as resistant as that used in kitchen sinks or silverware. However, I see no reason not to get stainless except for looks. Under most conditions it should be less prone to rusting. Triggers on a lot of factory guns are less than optimal and often should be upgraded. The bedding, stock and overall fit and finish can usually use some help too depending on how picky someone is. Some shooters think factory barrels are only good for poking wood around the fireplace. Some factory stainless guns do have blued parts including triggers on them. The blued guns also have blued triggers, magazines and screws. If you are not where you want to be with a gun out of the box at least with a stainless model you will be further along.

Just like I said stain-----less, the original discovery being that it stained less than carbon steels

Guntoter,
WOW!!!! I wish I had of known stainless was such so worthless before I went and spent all that money. Stupid me for thinking stainless could ever possibly be made into anything worthwhile.

Stunning, one of the nicer pieces I have seen here and that is a LOT of choice rifles. I would gave prefered auxiliary irons, but, I also wear a bealt and suspenders on my bush pants...

Chambering and maker?

been away for a couple days...

ok, some of you understood my meaning.
it was that some of us like to argue the pros and cons of stainless guns in the field. all the while not realising the triggers are not stainless. and they are not. call the manufacturers and ask about the trigger and sear...one will not be stainless if not both of them. it has to do with hardening.

oil on the trigger is a dumn idea who ever mentioned that.

boltman, your just being rude.

bill berger...no one said it could not be pretty. and your gun is indeed pretty but your photos suck.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:. . .having a stainless steel gun built (or to buy one)is an absolute waste of ones time.. .

toter

I don't think all of us misunderstood you. You referred to building a stainless rifle. If you do that you can use a stainless trigger. They do exist. If you buy a stainless rifle that doesn't have a stainless trigger, it can be replaced.

A trigger is one small component of a rifle. To say that it is a waste of time to consider building or buying a rifle because of it, is sorta disingenuous, IMHO.

I get the feeling that you simply do not like stainless rifles. That's your right. It's your money. But why not just come out and say that directly?

Ray

quote:

BigEarl, are those bases direct from Conetrol?

Trax, No,I machined them from stock.

MITanker, again, that sure is a sweet rifle! and the wee bit of nickle in the metal dosent hurt a thing.

I ended up "painting" my rifle to get rid of the "stainlessness" and if it were to be done over again I would have used chrome moly.

ray i like stainless and own a few rifles in stainless.
my point is that we all get caught up in a debate about whether or not a guy should take a gun say to alaska and whether it should be in stainless or not.

the point is it really does not matter if the barrel and action are stainless or blued because if either of them rust in that short amount of time it makes no difference.
whereas if the trigger rusts and it is an enclosed trigger like most every trigger out there except for winchester then you got a real problem possibly.
a rusted trigger can be very dangerous.

i dont know why everyone keeps saying their trigger is stainless. is it because they do not want to believe otherwise?
is it because the trigger has an electroless nickel coating that matches stainless and they think its a stainless trigger?

they DO NOT EXIST. call the manufacturers or better still call and speak to a trigger maker like jewel or timney.
the trigger and sear are what is important. they cannot both be made of stainless.
therefore one is prone to rusting and if it is in a non stainless housing like a remington then you got problems.

this is my point.
who cares of if the barrel and action remain rust free when i got a trigger that might misfire or not fire.

i do like stainless barrels and actions and bills above looks mighty fine.
but i dont think people should buy stainless because they think it will protect their gun from the environment. buy em cuz you like the way it looks. thats about all it is...stainless pretty silver looks.

a false bill of sales from gunmakers.
thats the bullshit of it.

I have many blued rifles and stainless rifles and handguns. I prefer the stainless ones they are a lot easier to take care of in the feild.

I did a test one rainy deer season with my MKII stainless in 416 I didn't clean it oil it or anything else 4 days of in and out of the case getting wet everyday left in the case wet. After 4 days of this not a spot on it.

If I would have done that with my favorite model 99 300 sav it would have been pitted rust all over it ect. Nope I'll take stainless for a hard working gun any day.

toter

I have 5 or 6 Jewell triggers and I always assumed they were made of stainless. You said otherwise so I dug out their literature and here's what it says:

A. Internal parts are 440C stainless steel, heat treated and tempered throughout to 58 Rockwell C scale.

B. Side plates are .050" aircraft grade 300 series stainless sheet steel.

C, All hardware, including through pins, main spring, spacers, and screws, are stainless steel.

I bought all of mine back in the days when Arnold was making them in San Marcos. Maybe things have changed since then.

Ray

Anyone who does not believe there are stainless steel triggers is probably mistaken. The Jewell trigger IS stainless. Here is a couple of lines directly from an interview of Mr. Jewell:

"Performance Shooter: Are all the components stainless?

Jewell: Yes. The internal levers are 440C stainless, and the sideplates are 304 stainless. Even the spring is stainless. "

Also, if one Googles "stainless steel trigger"
they will get enough listings for them (for many, many makes of guns, both rifles and pistols) to spend some interesting hours downloading them all.

I suggest Googling both "stainless steel triggers", and "Jewell triggers" if one wants to get the straight poop.

quote:

Originally posted by Gun toter:
...
boltman, your just being rude.

I think you meant "You're being rude", and no, I was not. Your original post was a trolling exercise to try and stir up the old stainless vs. blued debate. There are good reasons why many prefer stainless rifles, I gave you mine. Trigger mechanisms are enclosed in the stocks, they're not subject to sweaty fingerprints, salt spray, or most of the other things that cause blued rifles to rust. I've never had rust in a trigger mechanism, blued or stainless, so I'm not that worried about it and I don't find that argument credible. I've had plenty of rust on blued barrels and actions, plus in blued bores. I know gun quality stainless will rust, but it's generally very light and can be easily taken off with a bronze brush. If it comes to it then you can get a machine shop to bead blast it and it's as good as new. I've never seen stainless pit like blued steel does. Stainless offers no downsides and several upsides to me. The high level of required maintenance for a blued rifle in a humid environment like mine takes time that I'd rather spend doing something I like, rather than cleaning rifles. To each his own.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by boltman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gun toter:
...
boltman, your just being rude.

[QUOTE]

I think you meant "You're being rude", and no, I was not. Your original post was a trolling exercise to try and stir up the old stainless vs. blued debate. [QUOTE]

+1

gun toter I am afraid that I agree with boltman 100%... Some of my favorite rifles are blued but I wish they were stainless...

boltman...no I meant you are just being rude.

look i am not trying to talk anyone out of their stainless guns. like i mentioned, i have them too.

the point is once again. why sit around arguing the merits of the stainless action and barrel when the rest of the gun IS NOT.

i will relent that perhaps jewel built stainless triggers but they do not anymore.
stainless against stainless will gall.
read trigger and sear.
you can coat them but manufacturers do not. they simply build one of the two out of a steel that is not stainless.

hell the bolts are not even stainless on many if not all of the guns that we buy as described "stainless".

I'm still trying to figure out what your question is..

I have both stainless and CM rifles, have been hunting in some pretty wet conditions, and never had an issue with the trigger group on any of them... unlike the bore of one of my cm rifles...

Maybe I'm just one of those boring old farts who just hunts with his rifles..

I'd like to own a few I could afford to just 'look at', and have done so in the past.... but if they can't 'cut it', they don't last very long in my safe...

FWIW, my three fave rifles are a M77 stainless, a CZ527 CM and a 1957 Win M70 Supergrade in 243.... they all get the same treatment - not a problem with any of them.

I've tried reading through this - to get a common thread -- oh well. Naturally I take more precautions with my CM & wood rifles compared to SS & synthetic rifles. I sometime don't clean a stainless rifle the same day as shooting it, but I always try to clean the CM rifles and wipe thme down and dry out the same day as the outing. For extended outings, I just take stainless. I've never had trouble with triggers on my stainless Rugers, but once I had some rust show up on a SS Winchester with a custom trigger that isn't stainless. I cleaned it up real good, and watch it carefully now.

I assure you that stainless will corrode. About a year ago I bought a Ruger SS 77 MK II from a guy in a remote village, who apparantly needed money for his next drink. It was a mess, but I bought it for the action, and figured it would clean up. Really, I think this rifle had been in the bottom of his boat for months, soaking in salt water and fish slime and old oil and gas. Well it cleaned up alright, but it's pitted. Fortunately most of the pitting is on the barrel. Yet, it still functions, and shoots well, and it's still acceptably accurate. I hauled it around on a four wheeler for a while. I'm still going to have it rebarreled, and put a Hogue stock on it. Bead blasting the receiver should clear up most of the blemishes. I have a stainless barrel in 8mm, so I'm planning a 8x57 bush beater/tomato stake out of it. Or Maybe a 376 Steyr -- Hummm

Incidentally, I sold the laminated stock off that rifle on Ebay for almost as much as I paid for the rifle. The guy said he was happy with it - gave me a good review. I wouldn't dare try that on this forum.

KB

Gun Toter-

I get the feeling you and many others do not understand that there is far more than one type of stainless steel.

Basically "stainless" is a term applicable to ANY steel alloy that contains 10.5% or more of chromium. Some contain up to 16% or more chromium. The very common ones in many applications also contain either nickel or managanese AND nickel.

They also are pretty much all "resistant" to rusting, but not "rust proof". In particular, those with high Nickel content are very susceptible to corrosion in an environment which contains more than a normal amount of chlorides or chlorine...such as salt water(ocean water, for instance). Maybe that's why the one Kabluey mentions in his post just above was so rusty.


The problem with galling of stainless steel has long been recognized. There are entire sections of steel metallurgy literature devoted to reducing/preventing galling.

The principle ways of reducing galling in stainless steel applications include but are not limited to:

- Using moly, mica, graphite, or talc as a lubricant.

- Making sure that the two parts rubbing against each other are of different stainless alloys. (Won't go into that in detail here, but galling is essentially a form of "cold-welding", where the parts are welded together by pressure. Then, as their movement rips them apart, their surfaces are torn and scarred. To reduce the welding, different alloys are used, as they melt at different temps and their rubbing together may not produce the right heat to make the "weld")

- Reducing the speed at which they rub together.

- Modifying the alloy itself by adding other ingredients to the mix. One of the most common additions in developing non-galling stainless steels is to mix in less than 3% of silicone. Another common addition is Nitrogen. One of the foremost developers of non-galling stainless steels on the market is located down in southern Texas, BTW.

Here is a comment by an independent engineering assessment organization:

"Results show the galling threshold for gall-resistant stainless is over 15 times higher than that of conventional stainless steels. In addition, gall-resistant stainless withstands more than twice the stress without galling compared to the 16Cr-8Ni-4Si-8Mn alloys".


My thoughts here? A firm which wants to make stainless rifles with stainless triggers has little reason not to, if it has much engineering expertise.

Anyway, apparently there ARE stainless triggers in at least some stainless rifles on the market.

Most interesting post! While at Gander Mountain, we were asked to re-barrel a stainless A bolt.

I unscrewed the receiver ALMOST seized up tighter then hell. Nothing to do but use a longer lever and get the damn thing off, since I could not move it either way.

Finally, sawed off the barrel and stuck the receiver in the lathe and bored out the shank..once I reached the root, the remaining barrel threads came out pretty freely.

We put our experience to the Bowning folks and shortly afterwards a bulletin was issued to all Browning dealers to "DO NOT TRY TO SEPERATE THE BARRELS AND RECEIVERS...WARRANTY VOID IF ATTEMPTED"

We saw galling on LOTS of stainless handguns and rifles...mebbe they got it doped now, but sure turned me off "stainless guns"

The only galling incident I saw on a regular basis with so called conventional steels were with the Kreighoff O/U (Remington copy) I was a Kreighoff warranty gunsmith at the time...boy were the customers really unhappy! I have no idea how many Kreighoff's Hal Du Pont ended up replacing