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A close friend and hunting buddy was firing a relitivly new Ruger 77 compact chambered in 260, He was shooting hand loaded 120 gr. TSX bullets over 37 grains of BLC-2. The first and second shot fired fine with no signs of over-pressure, and did clear the bore, the third shot blew the action and destroyed the stock, barrel appeared to be undamaged, the bullet exited the barrel. The floor plate stayed latched, but was bent far enough to alow the spring and follower to blow out, the bolt is seized closed, the bolt release is blown out. We did not try to open the bolt as to keep it in tact for inspection by Ruger. He called Barnes today and they confermed the load was safe. The call to Ruger did not go as well, they were very interested in getting this rifle, however they said that with him shooting a hand load that he was SOL, they would not replace the rifle. What can he do now? Should he have a gunsmith inspect it? Shpuld he go ahead and send it to Ruger, or should he hold on to it for his lawyer to see. All he want is the rifle replaced, I thought if you called a firearms manufacture and tell them there product just blew in your face they would be more than happy to send you a new one to avoid any legal action. Any advice appriciated. | ||
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Manufactures won't warrant anything shot with handloads, period. I wouldn't waste the postage to send it to them as they have a vested interest in protecting their compoany, not a single owner. Even the most honest of companies is compromised under this scenario. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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what TT said... they won't do anything for a handload opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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The last thing we need is more guys suing gunmakers. I would tell your friend to hang it on the wall as a conversation piece and use this as an opportunity to ungrade to a nicer rifle.  | |||
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I agree we don't need folks suing gunmakers, but...I think there is a little more to it than the blanket exclusion the mfgs. put in their manuals. I am NOT sure of this, but I have heard, that if it is demonstrable, that the load was within SAAMI standards, it might not be that easy for them to tell your friend to go pound sand. This advice I have gotten and is good, get a GOOD attorney to advise you whatever the case may be--having said that, a 5 or 6 hundred buck rifle doesn't warrant a lot of legal time! Good Luck to your friend. | |||
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Actually, for Ruger to send a new gun could be interpreted as an admission of guilt of some sort. I've had two serious handload errors and never discovered what went wrong. One in a Remington 700 and another in a push feed M-70. Neither gun was damaged but the case evidence was that it probably would have destroyed a CRF rifle. Put yourself in Ruger's place.....would you send a new rifle to a handloader?.......IMO the overwhelming odds are that there was something wrong with that handloaded cartridge.....believe it or not! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Let's see. First it is handloaded. Was the powder charge in fact only 37grs. That is a VERY light load per my data. Plenty of room for extra powder. Was the bullet over spec??? Wrong powder not BLc-2? Lot of arguements Ruger could raise. Last but not least the following is printed right in your buddy's owners manual.  As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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I think I need to be more clear in the fact that no one is looking to sue Ruger, and by loosly working in the law field, I can see where sending a new rifle could be seen as admitting guilt, however I guess a little more customer loyalty was expected. | |||
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The reason manufacturers don't cover blow-ups with handloads is because the great majority of the time the handload caused the blow-up. I don't know your friend but even very experienced handloaders make mistakes, perhaps he was interupted while loading one night and got more powder than planned in the case, perhaps his scale was off for some reason... My view would be that since the gun blew up with his handload it was obviously not a safe load, and not within SAAMI specifications. Since it's in pieces you will need a couple of very good forensic mettalurgists to argue your case. They will say it blew from overpressure, and you're still nowhere. Chalk it up as a cheap learning experience, no one got hurt and he can replace the gun. Browningguy Houston, TX We Band of 45-70ers | |||
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To you it's a $400 gun.....to Ruger it's (possibly) admission of guilt to (possibly) very serious personal injury liability which could run mega dollars! Their sending you a new gun might hurt them in other incidents where serious injuries have occurred. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Had it blown with factory ammo, Ruger would have had the ammo manufacture replace the rifle. Maybe not directly to you, but indirectly the ammo maker would be the one buying it for you. | |||
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It is a rare handloader that can own up to his own error. There are some things I try to avoid and that is a light load of a slow burning powder and a light load of a spherical powder. If you decide to open the action you might try that load again again and you might get the same result.... | |||
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I do not have any first hand knowledge of Ruger's policies today, however, and this is for information only since several years have passed and changes in management have no doubt occurred, I did have a good experience with Ruger and a gun blowup. About 5 or 6 years ago, I had a Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt blowup. This revolver was about a month old, we were shooting handloaded "cowboy" light loads. I had shot probably 100 or so of this load, and after firing the last shot, my brother went to eject the fired cases and saw the damage. The top strap was bowed, the cylinder was cracked and egg-shaped. I might add that the last shot exhibited no unusual characteristics at all, no extra recoil, smoke, noise, etc.. I was active on a sixgun forum at the time and posted some pics along with the story. I was not sure if sending it back to Ruger was worth the time, and opinions varied among those on the forum as to what Ruger would or would not do. I never called Ruger, but I did pack up the revolver and sent it to Ruger, along with a letter detailing exactly what happened. In the letter I mentioned that I was using handloads, and the load used. I did not make any demands of Ruger, all I asked was that they send me an estimate of the repair costs, and that if the piece could not be repaired for them to return it to me. In a short time I received a letter from Ruger stating that they had examined the gun, and that in their opinion the damage was caused by a faulty handload. However, they also said that in spite of this, and with customer satisfaction in mind, that they would send me a new Vaquero without charge once I signed a release accepting the offer. So, I was made happy. However, I later read of others who had vaqueros blow up who got no help from Ruger, or had to pay part of the replacement cost. I did read that in the cowboy shooting world there had been several incidents with Vaqueros, and possibly a problem existed and Ruger wanted to make it go away quietly. I just do not know. Anyway. that's my two cents worth. Most likely if I had the same thing happen today I would be out of luck, however if I did have a problem, I think I would still send it back, you never know could be your lucky day. | |||
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opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Tell your friend to say a thank you prayer that he still has all his digits and two good eye's. Then go pick out a nice replacement rifle. It could have been a lot worse than it was. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I'm down with 500 grains on this one. Nothing that can't be replaced has been damaged. What a story that rifle will tell hanging on the wall. A cheap war-story. What friggin good are getting lawyers involved in going to do? With no injuries and only out a 4-5 hundred dollar rifle....what could be gained? Shooting is not perfectly safe nor can we cover the world with mattresses. 99,999 out of 100,000 times you pull the trigger on any firearm things will go smoothly. But that one bad time can come at any time. S**t happens when you are dealing with all the mechanics and variables plus dealing with tens of thousands of pounds of pressure per square inch. Throw in the mix the reloading component and the odds increase for a boo-boo about ten fold. Most of the boo-boos I've been anywhere close to involve reloads. Cars crash, parachutes sometimes fail, knives improperly handled can cut, and hammers and saws can hurt fingers. If you can't accept that there are some risks involved with shooting a firearm then stick to playing cards indoors, collect Barbie dolls, or perhaps play marbles. | |||
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It's hard to say what happened, but I for one do not like to use a powder that doesn't pretty well fill up the case. With 4350, H4831, etc, it is pretty hard if not impossible to get enough in the case to cause a problem. Hell a lot of things could have happened, powder could have bridged in the measure, next load got 1.5x the powder, who knows? I am pretty sure a 37-grain load of Ball 2 didn't grenade a Ruger 77. Just be glad the margin of safety kept anyone from being hurt. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Quality control for handloading depends on what's between the handloader's ears. No offense meant, but there's no way Ruger should replace that rifle, and no way your friend should push the issue. If it had been a factory load, well, then that would have been another story entirely. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Curious - Stupid me but I'm not clear about the actual damage which resulted. Did you say the barrel including the chamber was still intact? So what happened to the forward receiver ring? Sounds like a case failure and gas overpressure fried the bolt head and blew out the bottom metal and wood. If that's the case then it's not a failure of the rifle. If the forward receiver ring and chamber are deformed/cracked or similar then there may have been a defect in one or the other. Improper heat treating of the barrel blank or investment cast action possibly. I'd keep it as a novelty and buy a sturdier/better designed rifle for your handloading buddy. (and stand behind him when he shoots.)  | |||
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Never load double base ball powder less than 90% of a full compressed load. If the load was as he said, then he had a flash over and detonation. They happen rarely, but happen they do.Ed. MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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That sounds very likely, since 37 grains of BLC-2 would be a minimum sort of load with a 120-grainer in a 260. I guess he used thrown charges and threw a lighter than thought load and had a detonation. Glad nobody was hurt. | |||
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The charge threw him too!!  | |||
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Or was it just a cracked case head/separation from decrepit brass. Sounds like the excellent Ruger rifle handled it pretty well.  | |||
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PHOOEY! RIP!! Good for testing the depth of quicksand maybe! A failed case shouldn't result in a broken up rifle. That's just poor engineering. Of course if he had some huge pressure spike and the chamber and receiver are still intact then it did marginally ok. I guess it was better than a pressure spike in some crappy old dinosaur Mauser that guys are always talking about turning into something other than a museum piece! Could have been a Martyr Stick! | |||
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Like others have said, it sounds to me that if the bolt is stuck and the front ring is still in tact that the rifle done the best it could under the circumstances. Some pictures would be nice. No doubt this was caused by excessive pressure probably do to under charging not over charging the round, also stated earlier. It doesn't sound like the recalled Sako's from a couple years ago. They usually split into three pieces, pilled open like a bananna. Check the pictures out in this postM70 blow up. This was bad case of detonation. I would bet my next pay check it was notthe fault of Winchester. Like wise in your buddys case. Shawn Have you cycled your PF upside down lately????? God Bless http://www.davidchristmangunmaker.com/ http://i257.photobucket.com/al...wnhound/f66262d4.jpg | |||
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I SERIOUSLY doubt that the rifle was unsafe to shoot. I have never heard of a Ruger Rifle ever being delivered that had any defect that would allow that kind of blow-up. Their manufacturing process insures that safe rifles come off the assembly line. I'm only talking safe rifles here, not other no-safety related defects. Which brings me to the point. The handload. There are a whole lot of things that could have caused the blow-up related to the handload, and you can develop that list as well as I can. I have a huge problem BELIEVING the blow-up was a rifle problem; not from Ruger, or Remington, or Marlin, or Savage. You are NOT going to get an unsafe gun from any of the major gun makers today. Answer: Don't even dream of sending the rifle back to Ruger. Go buy a new one...... | |||
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I would look 1st to the technique used in handloading. I have never loaed a round with out puting each charge in the scale pan. I know guys who throw a charge directly into the case. Not me. When i used a thrower I threw into the pan. I also like to make sure My powder charge fills the case beyond the half point making sure I can't double charge a case. BLC2 is about as fine a powder (fine as in small granuals) as I can remeber using and I wonder if a double charge could have been loaded. I have made a few dangerous mistakes in my time. I got lucky once and realized I had used varget in my 7mmSTW , when I ment to use H-1000. I was just packing my shooting bag to go to the range when i noticed 2 cans of powder on my loading bench.( another NO NO) When I looked in my new electronic charge set up I discoverd my mistake. 82 grains of varget under a 160 grain bullet. I did no loading for a few days and reviewd my process. To reduce the posibility of reapeting that mistake...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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Surely you jest? _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Ruger actually replaced my 77-22 .22 Hornet after it blew up. I was using a handload that previously worked and had shown no signs of high pressure. The other side of the story is that this particular rifle had been returned to Ruger twice for inaccuracy. 3" to 4" groups with factory ammo and 2+" with the aforementioned handloads. The letter from them stated that the failure was due to high pressure from my handload but, for customer satisfaction, recognizing previous problems, they would replace the rifle. They did and I immediately traded it, still in the box, for a Remington. NRA Life Endowment Member | |||
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I converted all my rifles to CRAPFAD actions that have been cycled upside down and under water. I'm thinking about sending one up on the next Russian Space Tourist Trip for a zero G feed test too! | |||
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This is a great reminder that it is never a good idea to shoot someone else's handloads. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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If bolt is locked up and reciver ring ok, then the Ruger did the job it was supposed to do. Chamber may be bulged. I did it once with my Ruger77, in my 458HE. Left a half lb knockout rod in barrel and shot it out along with 350 gr bullet using 120 gr of H335 ball powder.It wasn't part of my testing plan for sure. We figure at least 180k psi and probably 200k. Bolt locked, chamber bulged. We took out barrel with lathe, Checked action and bolt, no cracks or stress signs,put on a new barrel and fired a 1000 fully loaded 458HE rounds since. So if his action is together it us probably still ok.If you want to load bottleneck cases down go to a slower powder, and use a litttl mor of a slower powder. Powder is a bargain compared to problems. Oh by the way you tell the powers that load is NOT safe. I know more about internal ballistics than.......You get the idea....Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Freshwater Whaling is fashionable in Brinton again??  | |||
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#1). We live in a very litegious society... common talk: "sue happy." Ruger and everyone else has to live with that and minimize liability or products become so costly they go out of business. You may recall that was a strategy of Schumer and Turley and other gun haters. #2). Ruger may have made a defective product. As said, getting "satisfaction" in our world, see #1), ... You/he would need a lawyer to have tests run to prove the gun has a defect... Mr. Ackely had pictures of a Win 70 that came apart at the receiver ring in his books... Costly, annoying... Unless you are FULL of "piss and vinegar" and willing to fight, fight, fight, regardless of cost (and you have the resources to absorb that cost, lawyers don't work free)... Make a wall hanger, give thanks that no one was hurt and "eat" the loss. luck. | |||
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Mac-The rod was little shorter than barrel, and if case stuck a little in my teating I'd drop the rod while working bolt and saved tearing up the rims so case would last.I was testing in a new realm, a real long 458. Somebody distracted to do something and I came back later with another load, forgot the rod, loaded and... I figure rod was tight to bullet or it would have been an obstruction and split the barrel.Straight through chrono and almost through backstop.Chron read 1500. I showed Bill Jr the casehead(which expanded and flowed brass into the ejector hole in bolt), at Shot Show 99 and thanked him and company for a strong action.My cases had a thick base and it didn't blow, but primer blew and gases into firing pin hole recocked the firing pin. Still using same pin, bolt, etc. The reason I say that those loads not safe, even though listed, the 37 gr of ball powder is about 90% of the max load with that powder(about 40-41 gr) it is a much lower percentage of what volume of ball powder that the case will hold to base of bullet. About 48-52 gr of ball.Leaves to much space.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Rifle actions handle escaping gas in a couple of ways. They either seal it in (Remington 700, Savage 110) or they vent it (Mauser, Ruger, winchester M70). The ruger 77 vents primarily into the magazine well so the floorplate, follower, and spring are often sacrificed. Is is common for the extractor to take flight as well. The receiver and bolt may still be just fine but I am in no way saying they are. Send it to Ruger asking them to verify the usability of the receiver and bolt. If they say everything seems good, you can replace the necessary parts. Regards, Bill. | |||
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Bill, do you think Ruger would verify this rifle safe to fix even if it was? I'd just hang on to it. Who knows maybe there is a problem with a certain run of rifles and Ruger is trying to gobble them up. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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Every time you pull the trigger, you stand a chance that something might go wrong. The odds are usually pretty long that anything potentially dangerous will happen, but sometimes shit happens. Unfortunately, I guess it was just your friend's turn. One way or another, he's going to have to write this rifle off. Handloads voided the warranty and I doubt there is much Ruger can do for him. I'd be thankful I was still unharmed and still vertical and move on to another rifle. Hey...wouldn't now be a great time to buy that other rifle he's been thinking about? Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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Could you please tell me if you felt any of the gas/particles/whatever hit you in the face or eyes? Reason I ask is that I had a blown primer from headspace problem in a ruger 77 and did feel a sting on my cheek. | |||
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The only other time I had a blown primer was with a push feed model 70 and felt no gas on my face. I want to know if this is normal or if something is wrong with the rifle. | |||
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