I was wondering what the company's that use these actions as their base are doing or will do when their current stock runs out? I think they will be back and if not there is still a lot of used rifles out there but this would have to cause some problems.

They made a few million of them there will be plenty to make customs out of. The price for the action may go up $300-$400 but I don't think that's a huge worry on a $10,000 custom gun.......................DJ

It is my guess that we will see the model 70 return. I would also make a guess that we will see another 70 clone or atleast another try from the ones already in excistance. Maybe under new management/ownership.

This is just a guess. No "inside" info here.

I was thinking along the lines of companys like Hill Country and some others who try and produce a rifle well under 10k.

Why would anyone spend $10K on a rifle, unless he just wanted to be a show off to others???

I am sure the custom gunmakers love those guys.. but a 10K gun to me, is just plain showoff nuts...

people spend $10k on a rifle (good ones are frequently much more than that) for the exact same reason that people spend $200k on a car, $25K on a watch, $1k on an ink pen, etc., etc.

One thing I have noticed is that people who will spend $20k+ on a rifle NEVER speak poorly of people who will not, or cannot, spend that on a rifle. However, I have noticed a large group of people who look for the lowest price will routinely speak ill of those who spend the money to get what they want.

This is a classic case of "if you have to ask, you would not understand." And there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. Buying a gun at WalMart is no better or worse than dropping $20k on a gun, just different.

Thankfully we live in a country where people are only limited by themselves. We are free to go as high and far as we choose in careers, business, passions, past times. And some choose to have high end firearms, both in this country and in others around the world.

BTW B17-what does the very last line of your paost say when trnaslated in to English? I have been wondering. THanks!

quote:

Posted Feb 24, 8:33 AM Hide Post
BTW B17-what does the very last line of your paost say when trnaslated in to English? I have been wondering. THanks!

It's something mildly obscene about Torf about whom he seems about as fixated upon as those who can afford to spend 10K on a rifle.................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
BTW B17-what does the very last line of your paost say when trnaslated in to English? I have been wondering. THanks!

he the left-winger is liberal stupid wet his! Is the courteous fleas from close friend the scrotum the beauty disturbed for him!

okay. who the hell is Torf?

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:

quote:

Posted Feb 24, 8:33 AM Hide Post
BTW B17-what does the very last line of your paost say when trnaslated in to English? I have been wondering. THanks!

It's something mildly obscene about Torf about whom he seems about as fixated upon as those who can afford to spend 10K on a rifle.................DJ

bingo.. Give that man a cigar!!!!

I bare no guilt on not wanting to drop 10 K on a rifle.. the same way I wouldn't spend 200K on a car, or 1K on a watch.....

Just because I don't see it, and think some of the guys who do spend money on stuff like that are NUTS, It is your money.. around ya, I'd keep my opinions to myself...

I have an aunt like that.. she has to spend money on just showing off.. it always rubbed me wrong, because of the message she was trying to send.. " I am better than everyone else".. which she wasn't...

She had to own a Lincoln in Southern West Virginia, where most of the roads in the county are dirt...that makes about as much sense to me, as owning a Jeep in NYC....

But hey, If you boys feel the needs to be snooty, don't let me get in the way.. and I will promise to try and hold my laughter at your pompousness to myself!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
okay. who the hell is Torf?

Torf.. is a lefty liberal, NON shooter, that hangs out on the AR Political forum.. usually bad mouthing his country.. glorifying Islam, and trying to act like his is some intellectual, when in reality he is lab rat that lives at his key board and gets most of his Informed opinions, from Google or some lefty Arabic Islamic web site....

It is short for his handle of "The O'Really Factor?"

For the Arabic words, I used Google Translate, which evidently doesn't work very well... but the English translation should be along the lines of..., May the fleas of a thousand camels infest his lefty liberal bed wetting underwear.....

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
people spend $10k on a rifle (good ones are frequently much more than that) for the exact same reason that people spend $200k on a car, $25K on a watch, $1k on an ink pen, etc., etc.

One thing I have noticed is that people who will spend $20k+ on a rifle NEVER speak poorly of people who will not, or cannot, spend that on a rifle. However, I have noticed a large group of people who look for the lowest price will routinely speak ill of those who spend the money to get what they want.

This is a classic case of "if you have to ask, you would not understand." And there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. Buying a gun at WalMart is no better or worse than dropping $20k on a gun, just different.

Thankfully we live in a country where people are only limited by themselves. We are free to go as high and far as we choose in careers, business, passions, past times. And some choose to have high end firearms, both in this country and in others around the world.

That may be Mark...and glad we have those freedoms...

If you are the average Minnesota boy, ( I spent 15 years living in Minnesota), then you can appreciate that many of the good people back there, at least out of the Twin Cities... don't have the need to show off to others...

I just don't understand the need for a 10 K rifle.. I'd rather have 10 K invested in a batch of rifles, instead of just one...maybe that is my downfall....

I get along perfectly well in life, with a good old Model 70, or Rem 700... I really love a redone 03 Springfield... but a 10 K rifle normally has a lot of gold inlay on it, and all sorts of fancy scrolling etc...

Me, I'd take a pristine Model 54 Winchester or a pristine Model 70 from the 30s or 40s...in the 257 Roberts, or 250 Savage Calibers.. stuff not used anymore...30/30, 35 Rem...7.65 x 53..

or a Model 30 Rem in a 25 Rem, or a 30 Rem, or 35 Rem...

I shoot the usual 223, 22.250, 243, 30/06, 270, 300 and 338 Win Mags... but I prefer the 260 Rems, the 6.5 x 55's, the 7 x 57's, the 6mm Rem's that I have.....

I don't get fired up by Ultra Mags, Short Mags, or any other marketing gizmo...

I drive a Camry when I can afford much more expensive transportation, but why???

I am not so much cheap, as practical...

I'd rather invest my money on my son, and my wife's needs than have a couple of $10,000 rifles...

so if that makes me a cheapskate peasant,.. well I don't mind being called that at all...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Why would anyone spend $10K on a rifle, unless he just wanted to be a show off to others???

Some people just like nice things.

Why would anyone eat a good steak? Everyone knows hamburger is much cheaper and packs a turd just the same.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

I shoot the usual 223, 22.250, 243, 30/06, 270, 300 and 338 Win Mags... but I prefer the 260 Rems, the 6.5 x 55's, the 7 x 57's, the 6mm Rem's that I have.....

Why would anyone have so many rifles when just one gun will do?

quote:

One thing I have noticed is that people who will spend $20k+ on a rifle NEVER speak poorly of people who will not, or cannot, spend that on a rifle. However, I have noticed a large group of people who look for the lowest price will routinely speak ill of those who spend the money to get what they want.

Well said.

It's just human nature......envy is after all one of the seven deadly sins....

I am guilty of and well versed in ALL the seven sins....

I also live by the golden rule that Michelle Pfeiffer said in Scarface: "Nothing exceeds like excess......"

I don't look up to people that own $10,000 rifles any more than I look down on people who hunt with a $100 rifle. I would far rather hunt with a ethical hunter with a beat up H&R Single shot than a slob hunter with a H&H. But prejudice runs both ways, there are just as many or more people who automatically assume someone that has a really nice gun just does so to be snooty as there are those who look down on those who own things less expensive.

People naturaly want to assume whatever they have and whatever point they are to be the most "righteous" and proper but the truth is that a lot of it just comes down to luck. What we can choose is how we react to others.

Everybody have different level of means and should be judged more on how they act than by what they own. I don't own any $10,000 rifles or drive a $200,000 car. But that doesn't mean I can't appreciate them......................DJ

I have a very good friend who made his millions back in the internet stock market frenzy. His house costs a couple million. He drives a couple of mercedez. He has a couple of BMW motorcycles. He wears custom made suits. And he owns custom made guns.

Not once has he ever bragged about any of it. And I still pay for dinner every other time even if he brings his kids along.

Hear is the deal Seafire. If you had millions, I am betting you might be tempted to buy a $10,000 rifle, which by todays standards isn't even close to being an expensive custom rifle.

Me, I want one of those $85,000 Fabbri shotguns!

Jealousy is just as bad as snobbery.............DJ

Well gents, I can appreciate your opinions as well as you can appreciate mine...

And 22 WRF, If I had millions... I wouldn't be out hunting with a $10,000 rifle... but I sure as hell would be out hunting a boat load more than my budget allows now, in places that my budget doesn't allow at all....like Scandanavia, NZ, Alaska, Russia, OZ, Quebec, Newfoundland... and assorted states here in the USA....

But I'd probably be more like Jed Clampett than Howard Hughes...

And it doesn't bother me to be considered a peasant... but it is kinda humorous why you guys are feeling defensive about someone criticizing spendy rifles...

just my observations...

At the price of everyday new cars and real estate, $10K for a quality rifle is just mist on the bathroom mirror.
New receiver,Impecable wood/metal fit-finish,rust blue,quality walnut,cut barrel,,, will pretty much absorb that 10k before any taky gold inlay or engraving dares to invade it. Quite often its just there to distract from sub std. workmanship.
Alot of folk are simply affraid of custom rifles,and if they looked closely at their lives,some may notice that they have most likely squandered much more dosh on other things not so worthwhile.
Hunt with a ragtag original pre64m70,or go with an imacculate custom,I enjoy both,but what ever you do,dont get a half hearted custom.
Look at it this way,If youve got the $ for a top end unit,(does not have to be 10k, could be 3k for a synthetic) and you plan to own and hunt with it for agood part of your life,if thats truelly your sport and joy, then 10k or much less over 10-20-??yrs dont add up to much per week over that time.

Anything material in this world only has a perceived value, and it differs from person to person.Its the workmanship,personal fit& balance that I value more than the price. I mostly prefer not to talk to the average joe about custom rifles, im not out to convince them,and I need no, nor seek no approvable or justification from them as to why a person should or should not have a custom rifle.
Custom rifles not the most important thing in the world, but they are a fine thing to have if kept in perpective with the other elements of ones life.

Geeze-

And I thought beautiful rifles was the reason we're all here.

flaco

I don't feel defensive about liking nice rifles. I just find it humorous that some people think that they are so righteous in their jelousy.
I can't afford 10K for as many rifles as I like to own which is why I'm trying to learn to make them myself. If I want something nice I plan to make it. I don't really care too much for fancy inlay's etc. but superb fit and finish and fine craftsmanship in general inspire me. I also know how much effort goes into such and beleive me, the guys who make the 10k rifles aren't getting rich!........................DJ

When it comes to rifles people do get jelous.Every time I go to the shooting range someone asks me how much my rifle costs and lets me off the hook when I tell them I am shooting an inexpensive factory rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Well gents, I can appreciate your opinions as well as you can appreciate mine...

... but it is kinda humorous why you guys are feeling defensive about someone criticizing spendy rifles...

It is not your opinion that was offensive it is how you said it.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Why would anyone spend $10K on a rifle, unless he just wanted to be a show off to others???

I am sure the custom gunmakers love those guys.. but a 10K gun to me, is just plain showoff nuts...

Clearly there is an underlying resentment. Unlike a person who does indeed have the means but just chooses not to, you came across as frankly envious in your post. (ie Allen Day, who has said he prefers Leupolds over Swarovskis on his Echols rifles- he clearly has the means to buy the more expensive scope but chooses not to.)

As a person who does own $200K cars, and $40K watches I take offense to that. The reason why people spend that amount of money on such luxuries is not to impress, but because we can.

On a personal note, there really is no reason to be jealous, because there is always somebody out there that has more than you, the sooner you accept that the better off you'll be.....

quote:

I just find it humorous that some people think that they are so righteous in their jelousy.

whose being righteous DJ????

I just made a statement and half a dozen guys jumped on it like stink on shit...disputing my opinion...
which is fine..
but I don't understand why anyone would worry about what some guy in Oregon thought of their fance rifle, or their desire for one...

I am happy as a clam with what I hunt with.. and anyone's opinion of what I have, that may be contrary to mine.. really isn't anything I am going to shed any concern over one way or the other...

My apologies for raining on your guys parade...

[quote]Clearly there is an underlying resentment. Unlike a person who does indeed have the means but just chooses not to, you came across as frankly envious in your post. (ie Allen Day, who has said he prefers Leupolds over Swarovskis on his Echols rifles- he clearly has the means to buy the more expensive scope but chooses not to.)

On a personal note, there really is no reason to be jealous, because there is always somebody out there that has more than you, the sooner you accept that the better off you'll be.....[/
As a person who does own $200K cars, and $40K watches I take offense to that. The reason why people spend that amount of money on such luxuries is not to impress, but because we can"

Well FMC...

My statements were made with no intention of malice toward anyone, or any position of envy of what they might have...

I walk my own path in life, and never really look upon envy of what material things someone else has, or look down on what someone else doesn't have in life...

So I don't apologize for my opinions..

I do apologize if someone took it as malicious intent.. it wasn't intended as so...

it is just my personal honest opinion.. and if we can't give our opinions in honesty.. well then, why bother at all?



ya know, but I will take a moment to relate a story.. read it if ya want..

A couple of years ago, on our local range...a couple of guys, with a little wealth, and who liked to show off all the time, were shooting at something.. yet there were no targets posted on the range...

so I walked down and asked them what they were shooting at...they pointed out that they were shooting at a rock at 725 yrd, up the mountainside...

Two shooters were shooting $4K custom rifles, chambered for exotic calibers, and shooting custom bullets.. which they were explaining that it cost them 4 bucks every time they pulled the trigger...

One had a Burris 8 x 32 Custom Shop scope, and the other had a Swarofski 6 x 24.... and their Leica range finder...

and there was a third guy spotting for them...a local doctor that I know...

they asked if I wanted to set up a target.. I told them NO, I was good... I watched them shoot for a few moments, missing the rock..

So I went down about 12 benches and set up my rifle.. a Model 70 with a 6 power scope.. which happened to be a $50 Cabelas scope I picked up at their store in Nebraska, as a back up scope.. I got home, put it on the rifle to zero it, and first shot at 100 yds, was a dead center bullseye!!! So I put a stoney point target turrent on it... and left it on there...

so I adjusted the elevation for the 725 yds and shot, and was short.. so I adjusted for elevation again, and I was long.. so I split the difference and the third shot hit the rock, and the fourth and the fifth....

Their spotter finally called to his shooters, that they had hit it...with the last three shots...

They responded that they hadn't shot! looking around, they saw I was the only other guy shooting...

So they mosie on down, and congradulate me on hitting the rock...

Then they asked what kind of caliber I was shooting, since they could tell it was a model 70... I responded 6mm...

Then they wanted to know, what kind of 6mm, whose bullets, who made the custom barrel for it, what kind of scope was it...

Was it a 6 x 284, a 6mm/06 AI?, etc..
where the bullets, Berger, Lapua, and a few more I have never heard of...
Was the scope a fixed 24 power or a fixed 36 power?? and they couldn't identify it? was it a new Swarofski, or a Doctor, or Kahles?
Whose barrel was it, PacNor, Shilen, Hart?

so I told them, NOPE..
It is an off the shelf Model 70, factory barrel, chambered in 243, the load was with a Winchester 80 grain SP bullet, with a charge of 40 grains of IMR 4895, with an MV of 3300 fps..

All I got was this " OH" response from all three of them...

They walked off and I thought they were going to continue to shoot at the rock.. since they hadn't hit it.. instead they just packed up their gear and walked passed me with their noses up in the air as they passed...

NOT one of those guys said a darn thing to me everytime I saw them on the range after that for the next 6 months...

I didn't take offense at anything.. but evidently they sure did...

So who we meet and what reactions we get, shape our opinions.. and for each of us that think someone is either jealous of what we have, or who look down in snobbery at those that don't have what they do.. well, it is a two way street...

Personally, if a guy is a fellow shooter, and can handle what he carries.. he is my friend all day long...I don't care if it is a $50.00 rifle or a $50,000.00 rifle...

I guess me with a $10K rifle, and a $2K scope.. well that is like putting HIGH test in a VW...
It doesn't make me any better a shooter.. which is the name of the game in my book...
But with my bourgeois Model 70 or Ruger and my Leupold or Weaver or Cabelas Scopes.. I don't do a bad job at hitting what I am aiming at...

I can hit a nat's eye at 700 yds one minute, and then miss a shot on an elephant that a blind grandpa with a sling shot could have made at 25 yds the next minute.....

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Two shooters were shooting $4K custom rifles, chambered for exotic calibers, and shooting custom bullets.. which they were explaining that it cost them 4 bucks every time they pulled the trigger...

Personally, if a guy is a fellow shooter, and can handle what he carries.. he is my friend all day long...I don't care if it is a $50.00 rifle or a $50,000.00 rifle...

Maybe the guys weren't bragging. Maybe they were bitching about how much they'd spent on a screamer rifle and the rifles & ammo weren't up to snuff. It is possible. You may have judged too quickly. Doesn't sound like you made any attempt to follow up. They may have been too embarrassed, not stuck up, to talk to you the following times at the range.

It sounds like if you don't know the person and he's not your "fellow shooter" their paying much more for a rifle then you will get nothing more than disdain from you.

You posted above that you did care about how much someone spends on a rifle BUT your sentiment was that they must be a blowhard to spend that much. I build this genre of rifle and have worked very hard at being fastidious about my profession. How would you like it if someone posted that whatever product or service that you provide is superficial and worthy of nothing but scorn?

Seafire,

I presume you dont live in a tent and ride a bicyle as your only form of transport.....I presume you have a reasonably modern home and car.
To some people in the world, you have the equal of a $200K custom gun, and may well ask why you need such things when their tent and cycle does them so well!
Would they be right in saying what you have is unnecessary?... or would you encourage them to have what you have if it made their life better in some way?
Its all about perspective, peoples opinion matter for nothing.

Ya know Woodjack...

There was an old hermit that died in 1969 that lived on the mountainside above my granddads in West Virginia...

He lived in an old shack in the winter, and an old Army surplus wall tent in the summer...

He drove a 1931 Model A Ford, with a top that had been cut, to repair damage of a rock falling on top of it once... the top was banged out by my grandfather for him.. and held together with C clamps on the car..it had an wicker chair nailed to the floor, for a drivers seat, and a bucket nailed to the floor for us kids to sit on when we rode in it with him...
He said he wanted one of them 'new fangled bucket seats' like my cousins Malibu had...

When the motor went, my granddad and old man Schumate, pulled a 6 cylinder Chevy motor out of a wreaked 54 Chevy at my Granddad's garage and mounted it in that old Model A... the motor was so long, compared to the original engine.. that they have to move the radiator, further out that the front bumper...

we use to love to ride in that old car...

the old guy grew about all of his own food, and shot deer year round for his meat ...

when he died in 1969, he left an estate of 40 million dollars to his aires...

that old guy's greatest joy was playing with us kids, and taking us out for rides in that old Model A, taking us out rabbit hunting on his farm on the hillside, or taking us out deer hunting up there...

on the other side of the family, Al Gore's Grandmother and My Grandmother were sisters...

My parents are very wealthy.. but you wouldn't know it by the way they act... as are a lot of my relatives back east, just from owning land that has been developed as suburbia grew back east in Metro Washington DC....

What matters in life, is the love that one gives those around them, and their fellow human beings....

you know, my idea of a class guy, is one who has a 10K rifle, and lets you admire it, even shoot it, but never lets you know how much he has invested in it.....cause that shouldn't really matter should it??

My friend still has a weathered wwII 6x6 blitz on his modern farm that still gets alot of work.
But also must remember that 31'Ford you mention was new once also, and cost a pretty penny in its day,though as time rolled on,other people came to appreciate it for other things than its purchase price. same can be said for a finegradeM98.
No, how much he has invested in a rifle should not matter. However stand behind a table with fine guns or walnut,and you will find people coming over who just want the most expensive to impress,then theres the others when you tell them the price, they say,"$?000 for that your mad!" Sometimes it dont matter what their level of money wealth is.

One has to accept that both types dont have enough understanding,but as long as one has understanding of those two types as well as others who appreciate the firearm for other things,then that helps.

The fact that you would shoot at the rock, says everything about who was trying to show who up. Just my two cents.

It's all about priorities......plain and simple.

You have to ask yourself how much do you feel a particular feature on your rifle is worth.

How well the safety work costs money.
How smooth the action functions costs money.
How pretty the wood is costs money.
How well balanced the rifle is costs money.
How dependable the rifle is costs money.
How cosmetically appealing the rifle is costs money.

All of these in varying degrees will determine the amount you spend or are willing to spend to achieve them.

We all look for value in items purchased, but in the back of most folk's minds.......quality has to cost more, so the more spent derives a higher quality end product.

Some guys will spend $3,000 or more on a custom rifle with a McMillan stock and put $100.00 glass on it.....doesn't make much sense IMO, but they chose the priorities for their money.

A considerable amount of people will buy very expensive custom rifle and load them with factory ammo.......again, nothing I would consider, but they have their priorities.

This subject reminds me of people I've ran into shooting pool......They don't even have the basic mechanics mastered of the game or understand the strategy of position and sequence, yet they'll spend $500.00 on a cue stick, when their skill level should have them shooting a bar cue.
Rifle ranges that I've attended, which are very few for these reasons, contain the same guys, but with different names.
Those that have money and nice toys, but lack the ability to shoot them.....Guys with real junk that can't shoot either......Fellas with mediocre equipment that shoot pretty well and the ones I've yet to find so far.......Guys with good equipment that know how to use it and understand and appreciate what features they paid good money for.

I know this is slightly off subject, but can anyone tell me why when normal, everyday, American hunters, who have rifle slings, suddenly start carrying their rifles by the barrel over their shoulder when they hit Africa???? The only reason that I mention this, is for the fact that the personality of those doing such things, IMO, falls within the group of having much, but knowing little......
If there's something I'm missing on this.....please enlighten me.

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
The fact that you would shoot at the rock, says everything about who was trying to show who up. Just my two cents.

How so?

I saw a challenge, and did a few sighter shots.. and hit it...

You would have just walked away and went home?

more power to you..

I would have tried to hit the rock.
I love shooting rocks! Especially with Bill Soverns 35 Whelen. There's no bag limit and you don't have to bring it home, clean it and then find room in your freezer to store it.

I have sent a fair number of rounds down range, at times working with a spotter. I have also spotted for others, in both practice sessions and matches.

I am extremely impressed at one's ability to do his own spotting at 725 yards with only the $50 6 power Cabela's scope on one's own rifle.

That, dear AR readers, is a feat to be applauded by one and all.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

I love shooting rocks! Especially with Bill Soverns 35 Whelen

That rifle actually was mine, and I never got to see it.

I bought it and two other pre-wars from some guy and had that sorry ass (Bill) look at them and accept them for me. I traded him that rifle in lieu of payment for one of the jobs he was doing for me............hey....I haven't got that one back either....................

quote:

Originally posted by triggerguard1:
I know this is slightly off subject, but can anyone tell me why when normal, everyday, American hunters, who have rifle slings, suddenly start carrying their rifles by the barrel over their shoulder when they hit Africa.

Well that's what your supposed to do isn't it???? Kinda like putting one foot on top of the animal holding the rifle upside down with the scope on your shoulder, pointing towards the sky?

Oh and don't forget the cigar:


P.S. that rifle only cost around $6K (didn't ring the 10K bell, sorry folks), and it has scratches, gouges, dings, cracks and worn leather, but the bitch has taken some game and it'll shoot under 1/4in all day....so much for showing off.

Well I think it's nuts to spend 30k on a David Miller rifle and not for the reasons stated above. I'd much rather have two or possibly three rifles of equal or better quality for the same price.

Great pic there doc. I still have that one printed out in 8x10 here on the office wall. Course there are a lot of dart holes in it. hehehe........