How are stainless barrel bands properly installed on a stainless barrel so they dont get loose? Press fit or pounded in place with a mallot, Locktite, epoxy, solder etc?

The Talley bands should be "gently" pounded according to their instructions. They are not taper reamed and need to be fitted to the barrel by using a hard faced mallet but not a steel one. I have used LocTite to bond two of them. It is a very high temperature sealer and is meant for bonding circular objects to tubing or other round objects. It has a temperature rating much higher than blueing salts.

I stretch them on just like any other and solder them down

Similar scenario with the NECG banded front sight base that I fitted and installed on my .458 Whitworth Express

The factory ramp self-ejected at about round sixty (to it's credit, it was kind enough to land right into the pile of ejected brass), the mounting screws had juuuust about one thread each of purchase. Should have removed/inspected that before I shot it, but no regrets as I really like the new elevation adjustable and *big pile of blade styles to choose from* with their Universal front sight system.

The NECG bands are shipped in the white and the collars are cylinder bored.

The muzzle of my Whitworth is tapered, and the bore diameter of the NECG sight base I ordered was very close yet juuuust under size - exactly what I wanted.

I had about fifteen inches of the muzzle end of an old brit Rigby magazine rifle barrel (you don't need to know where the rest of it went...) that had the same taper somewhere along it's length as the muzzle of my .458

I set the Rigby barrel in the big three jaw on one of the lathes and -taking my time and refreshing the Clover valve paste often- I lapped it for a perfect fit on the Whitworth.

Although I used LocTite sleeve retaining compound and wouldn't need to go any further than that, the NECG Masterpiece banded front sight base featured a small diameter allen head set screw tucked down in the cavity under the front sight blade, which I snugged down into the original forward factory front sight ramp mounting screw hole (bingo!) -- that provided the added insurance of a locating pin that's totally concealed.

The rifle has been hunted quite a bit, and hunted hard in the top end Northern California mountains and timber all through last winter, much time at the ready out on the ranch. The hooded front sight has gotten smacked pretty hard at least a couple of times and is no worse for the wear, hasn't budged a nostril hair.


As my .458 has it's forward sling swivel in the forend, I've thought of fitting and installing a barrel band swivel mount.
I haven't handled the NECG (or any other for that matter) barrel band swivel mount, but from what images and ad copy I've seen it appears that they need a bit of sculpting anyway, so taper boring or lapping on a mandrel won't really add much to the ol' work order.

I would either poke an access hole through the bottom of the sling swivel eye and step the hole diameter down for threading to accomodate a set screw whose head would seat deeply enough to clear the swivel pin bore - then spotface a cup on the barrel to receive the set screw - LocTite it for good measure and call it macaroni.
...Or I would get a little sneaky and use the swivel pin bore as access for an off-angle bore and female threads for a completely concealed set screw that'd make it's way in at a bit of an angle but still do the job - then as above, use LocTite sleeve retaining compound to settle the score.

Either way, I'd without doubt take the wee bit of time necessary to either lap or taper bore the band to perfectly fit the barrel contour.
Hammer-peening a sling swivel band on to my hunting rifle barrel just ain't happening, and I'd never trust the installation after all.


Cheers
Tinker

The reason I ask is I just had my M70 416 rebarreled about a year ago. The gunsmith reused the original barrel band and just the other day noticed it had moved. It didnt slide down the barrel but with a little effort one can spin it on the barrel using the sling swivel as leverage. There is no sign of epoxy, locktite etc and obviously no solder. The rifle has been carried very little with use of a sling,has not been dropped and maybe 150 rounds down the tube. Looks like I will be sending this to someone who can put a barrel band on that will stay in place!

Gentlemen, thank you for your information!

Do consider my simple route of either a hidden set screw from an angle through the sling swivel pin bore or easier an more secure, one perpendicular through the swivel pin bore - either way including a shallow spot face or cup milled into the barrel to locate the set screw.

That combined with LocTite sleeve retaining compound (don't bother with thread lock compound, use the sleeve retainer) and you'll have an absolutely solid installation that can come apart in the future if/when you re-black your barrel and furniture.

Doing it right doesn't cost much in time but it makes every bit of difference in the integrity of the rifle - and your trust in the gear when you're out in the field.



Cheers
Tinker

An update. Took the rifle back to the gunsmith to get barrel band resecured while I wait (which is what he offered to do). His preferred technique is Loctite 380 "black max" and a few taps from the mallot. He said "it aint coming off!!!". I take it home and about 3 hours later fire 6 rounds and find the band is loose again. When I first got it back last spring the front sight was off to the left and I pointed this out when I first shoulder the rifle. He couldnt detect the cant (everyone who looked at the rifle immediately saw the front sight was canted left) so I took the rifle home and sent it to AHR who promptly fixed it along with bead blasting the action and bottom metal(which also was not done after the rebarrel) to match the newly finished barrel! This rifle has become a money pit! The original gunsmith bill plus extra shipping to second gunsmith plus second gunsmith bill and 3 hour round trip plus wait have added up! I need another gunsmith!

Mississippian, get rid of all that "Bolt Rifle Trash". Stick with Double Rifles.

If you "must" have a Bolt Rifle, get a Blaser R 93.

PS. It was good to see you [and Bal] at Brady.

Your barrel/band fit needs to *first* be just right, then it needs something to secure it.
Banging a band with a cylindrical bore on to a tapered barrel won't likely end up giving you the joy you're after.

The work involved in reaming or lapping (on a separate mandrel) the bore of your band to get full purchase on your barrel will reward you many times over by way of a positive fit and minimal stress on your barrel.

Then either have it soldered (and have the metal refinished while you're at it) or get something in there to secure it's position on the barrel.

Using LocTite *CAN* work.
Sleeve retaining compound (620 is likely the thing for you, it'll take care of up-to .015" voids) is different from black max or thread locker.
It's definitely what you want on that band (if you're going the 'bonded' route) but you need to have either a key/keyway or an incorporated set screw and spotfaced location on the barrel to receive it.

What you have with a barrel and band is a 'taper fit' and that can be a great thing.
Without a key or set screw the shock of running the rifle (cyclic expansion/contraction combined with recoil) will eject your barrel band right off the taper. A tiny amount of forward movement will completely nullify that bond.

I've gone through this on countless machine components over the years. The LocTite sleeve retaining compounds are amazing, and are original engineered spec in countless assemblies and systems, in a wide range of functions and industrial end-users.
You need to do it right though.
We're talking *perfectly clean* surfaces and reasonable support (like a key/keyway or set pin or screw on a taper shaft fit) where necessary.
Even a tiny 2mm set screw will have shear strength well beyond what you'll need to keep the band 'in the bond' - and you can very discreetly bury it in there via an access hole through the bottom of the swivel boss.


Give what I'm outlining here a shot.
You won't regret it.



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by Mississippian:
I need another gunsmith!

Mississipian, I live in Clinton, MS. Would you care to tell me the name of your unsatisfactory smith? I've used David Christman (ACGG) in Delhi, LA with reasonable satisfaction for some things but I share your frustration about most of the local talent. Some are good at a few things, some are barely adequate and others are pitiful. I haven't smithed professionally for 35 years but have considered...
Regards, Joe

quote:

Mississippian, get rid of all that "Bolt Rifle Trash". Stick with Double Rifles

Im working on it! Gotta learn to use my double first so I dont interupt the flow of bacon! Still waiting on the reloading components.

quote:

If you "must" have a Bolt Rifle, get a Blaser R 93.

I darn near couldve bought one by now!

quote:

PS. It was good to see you [and Bal] at Brady.

Likewise! I regret not being able to stay the full trip! see you next Jan!

Tinker, Thank you for taking the time to provide such a detail response to my trend! For now I am finished spending money on this rifle. After all, a loose barrel band doesnt render it useless. While hunting, the sling stays in my pocket 90% of the time anyway. Too bad you dont live near Yazoo City!

For the record, this gunmaker and I have never had one foul word! I have always bit my tounge, kept a smile on and remained very respectful. I know all too well what it is like to be badgered by customers in my profession and make a point not to do it myself! For the original work order he had the gun about 6 months (which is fine), about 2 1/2 of which was waiting on the barrel blank. I called maybe 5 times throughout the 6 months and always started the conversation (after a polite greeting) with "Im not calling to rush you, just checking on the progress" and ended with "dont rush, im in no hurry". Im really suprised by my experience, this guy is suppose to be top shelf!

Total investment:

$1600- includes all parts and installation- shilen barrel,banded front sight,relaced rear flip up sight with single fixed rear leaf sight, recut checkering, refinished shock and extend LOP

$100 +/- shipping to AHR

$300 Straighten front sight, bead blast remaining metal to match new barrel and return shipping.

Yesterday-3 hour drive round trip plus 2 hour wait for work to be completed. Wasted, band still loose.

It adds up doesnt it!!

Mr Steele, PM sent

Mississipian, I've responded to your PM and thank you for keeping his name confidential. I'll also say that I'm appalled at his prices!

IMO, much as I hate to say it, you need a new gunsmith.
Regards, Joe

BTW doubles are good but not perfect. The last one I had was an H&H 500/450 Magnum Nitro that wouldn't regulate, no matter what! I even got hold of some original Kynoch brass, 480-gr solids and #172 primers (quite expensive nowadays) to try in desperation, but no go. Tried bullets from 350-550 grs and many powders & charges, one bbl always shot much higher. Go figure.
Regards, Joe

Oakland is indeed a long walk from Yazoo City - and you're welcome.

One last detail on the set screw setup.
I turn the last thread off the screw, leaving the OD of the tip cylindrical and the face flat.
With the band clamped/secured on the rifle just where you want it, get in there with a small end mill (or a proper sized drill) that cuts the same diameter you turned at the end of the screw (before you tap the screw hole's threads, so you don't have a chance to crash the threads with the endmill or drill, and so that you can use the pilot hole for the threads as a guide for your spotface) - and it doesn't need to be deep in the barrel, .020" - .030" is fine.
This leaves no 'wiggle room' for that assembly to possibly bang around in.
With the set screw in place and the sleeve retaining compound set, the assembly can't rotate or migrate to the muzzle.



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Took the rifle back to the gunsmith to get barrel band resecured while I wait (which is what he offered to do). His preferred technique is Loctite 380 "black max" and a few taps from the mallot. He said "it aint coming off!!!". I take it home and about 3 hours later fire 6 rounds and find the band is loose again.

Without making any sort of qualified comment on anything else-

Most glues, resins, and epoxies I have used, take between 12- 24 hours to reach full cure. locktite 380 TDS lists strength data after a 24 hour cure.

(My $0.02)Anything glued on a gun I'd keep at a stable temp for 48 hours before firing.

quote:

Without making any sort of qualified comment on anything else-

Most glues, resins, and epoxies I have used, take between 12- 24 hours to reach full cure. locktite 380 TDS lists strength data after a 24 hour cure.

(My $0.02)Anything glued on a gun I'd keep at a stable temp for 48 hours

Good point. He never mentioned waiting and made a big deal about getting it straight quickly or it would be a stuck puppy, only to get it off by heat.

Is it possible to use a bearing heater and use a shrink fit ?
You would need to have a good taper fit first.
On 900 horse power traction motors the hub is a shrink fit with no keyway. To remove the hub you need a 100 ton press and a couple of rosebuds to remove them.
Loctite 609 has always worked best for me on press fits.

If you shrink it on you take a chance on compressing the bore underneath, so no it's not A Good Idea. Regards, Joe

I also heat the barrel band, and then drive it on with a wooden mallet (gently).

Haven't seen any evidence of it effecting the bore.

Garrett

[QUOTE]Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
If you shrink it on you take a chance on compressing the bore underneath, so no it's not A Good Idea. What???I just can't sit back and see such a post without comment! The shrink method has been used for generations..maybe hundreds of years...how can you arrive at the bore compression idea? Please enlighten us. Proof please.

No Duane, I hafta disagree with you there. Where have you seen the shrink method used on RIFLE barrels for hundreds of years? I've seen plenty of soft solder and even some silver solder and brazing, but never any shrinking. Certainly not on a rifle of any quality, in almost 50 years of smithing. I think you'll find that any meaningful shrinkage of any reasonably substantial band will indeed alter the interior dimensions. As will any ham-fisted knurling of wedding-ring transitions on single shot barrels. A quick call to the Engineering or Physics department of your state cow-&-chicken school will confirm whether I'm right or not. The amount of displacement depends upon the thickness of the 2 metals and their respective compositions including heat treatments, and any competent mathematician can confirm whether or not I'm right by using the common values. Now, whether this actually causes any loss of accuracy, well...let's let the owner be the judge. A good reference for this bore compression concept can be found in the issues of Precision Shooting back around 1990, at the dawn of the fire-lapping publicity. Merrill Martin proved that compression of the outside of the barrel would cause a resulting change in the interior dimensions resulting in less accuracy, and he also proved that fire-lapping would cure it.

Personally I lap 'em and use either Acraglas or Loctite Stud-&-Bearing mount. And I certainly don't beat 'em on.

BTW I think your rifles are beautiful even though I sometimes disagree with you.
Regards, Joe

We may be talking degrees here. See Bakers book re shrink method...anyway, it's much like installing a bearing. Cool the male part (barrel)and warm the female part (band)...assemble VERY quickly and it's there to stay.

The disadvantage is that if you don;t get it right, you're in trouble...so I too use the loc tite 271 or similar...thump in place and it's there forever....tried to remove one I had installed this way, ended up turning it off in the lathe

Duane, I agree completely. Regards, Joe

Something else to consider here about shrink fitting components on to other components is the scheduled profile and section of the *inner* part, the section/alloy and temper/and contour of the *outer* part.


With something like a driving shaft in a gearbox, crank housing, or power transmission you're banking (for all the good reasons) on the section and contour of the shaft (along the section of the joint) to remain constant throughout the life cycle of the components.
Depending on the function of whatever you're sleeving over (or on...) it, the same will likely apply for it too.

Typically if you are not designing specifically for easy removal and refit, the contour will be a constant section, if you *do* want to be able to break and refit the joint a constant *taper* is often specified, or some manner of breaking the *outer* part is designed into the component (picture the big end of a connecting rod in a detroit V-8 engine for instance)

With a high power central fire cartridge rifle barrel (in the perfect world...) you're looking at thousands to tens of thousands of cycles of pretty aggressive "hoop stress" where the outside and inside diameters of the tube will see a breech to muzzle radiation of gradient annular expansion and contraction during the fractional second of 'internal ballistics' often referred to as 'barrel time' each time the rifle is fired.

You've likely heard of 'hoop stress calculations' in discussions of pressure and barrel profile. Hoop stress isn't typically a concern around mechanical assemblies where resistance fit or 'shrink fit' are employed, but you can always engineer for it.
Where there's already annular stress on the metal parts (via the shrink or interference fit), frequently scheduled rapid cyclic annular expansion and contraction could be quite a liability to thin-sectioned parts, also the ends of the outer part could present as stress risers.

I've seen many old rifles where there's a step machined in the barrel contour exactly where the barrel band(s) is(are) fitted, the section of the barrel at the point of fitment being cylindrical.
That'd be the best case arrangement for interference fits where the inner part is tubular and where it is designed to express the kind of radiant gradient annular and cyclic 'hoop stress' as noted above.
You see, this particular kind of sectional distortion can (and in the case of our OP's rifle, WILL) 'massage' the outer part down the bore axis, in line with the direction of the radiation of said stress.
With a taper fit, it doesn't need to travel very far to break the action of the interference fit - where you end up with the band jingling around on your nicely finished barrel metal.

Solder is a popular joining material at the gunbuilder's bench. With a rifle build where all the metal parts are 'in the white', the gunmaker is present for *the* ideal moment in the rifle's life where wailing on the surfaces with flux and fire is appropriate. Mechanically, most of the alloys Mr Gunbuilder would use are very well suited for the application - they can be stretched and relaxed repeatedly throughout the life cycle of the barrel without issue.
Once he's successfully joined the component parts, he can then go in there and clean and neutralize any residual flux, scrape/file/card/polish the area surrounding the hot work, and go forward with the metal finishing -- then follow up with blacking of the solder alloy if desired or necessary.
Great opportunities for billable hours in the shop, also great 'pride of ownership' potential for the owner of the rifle...

Fortunately, accounting to the marvels of modern science (plastics are the future after all...) we have the nifty array of cyanoacrylic adhesives and sleeve retaining compounds such as offered by our friends at LocTite. Many of them rival or surpass the shear strength and impact resistance qualities of solders. There are many models of this type of compound that are flexible and resilient to cyclic stresses, and furthermore many of them can withstand relatively high service temperatures.
Another great feature is that Mr Gunbuilder or Mr Gunsmith can apply them without disturbing the existing metal finishes, and properly applied they protect the area within the course of the joint from corrosion via significant capillary action into the structure of the metal surface.
It's much easier to ensure full-penetration with these 'crazy glue' type liquid bonding agents than it is with solder/flux. They can also be 'de-bonded' chemically or by way of heat *and* typically with less heat than what would affect barrel metal temper/state or quality of metal finish. There are enough choices of bonding agent, providing the opportunity to tailor the de-bond temperature to reflect the critical heat range of the barrel (or whatever mechanical component) and it's finish.

There is no wonder why engineers around the globe specify one of many different 'LocTite Sleeve Retaining Compound' type cold-bonding agents.

Applied properly and within the constraints of a thoughtfully designed or engineered assembly, they're the bees' knees!



Cheers
Tinker

When was the last time you saw a barrel band sling swivel on a BR rifle of any caliber? Geez, I almost lost consciousness reading this post. I appreciate the expertise of the post, however I fail to see much relevance to a hunting rifle application. I am sure there will be those in disagreement.

Stephen