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One of Us |
we had a spirited discussion while Hijacking JJHack's thread on Ruger and CRF and I thought we ought to start our own thread to discuss this one. While I think we all agree that most all bolt actions since the '98 Mauser are stronger than the brass cases used in them it was and still is my contention that the cut away sections of the bolt faces of the CRF style of action of the '98 Mauser, 1917 Enfield, 1903 Springfield and M-70 actions (pre-64 and classic) are far more likely to blow up in the event of a cataclismic error. Such error as might happen while loading a magnum case with bullseye or firing a .308 win in a .25-06 barrel or some other cataclismic error. I'm further reminded of Roy Weatherby's statement that his MarkV action held the 7MM weatherby round fired in a 270 Weatherby chamber where it totally destroyed the FN Mauser he was using prior to that time. Does anyone have photos of blown actions???.... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | ||
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vapodog, I believe that a counterbored bolt face in conjunction with a counterbored chamber is going to provide a much stronger system for containing gas and preventing a blown receiver than a system that allows expanding gas to act directly and immediately on the receiver ring and/or the extractor and its cut out. IMO, the Remington design with a totally solid bolt nose with the extractor completely enclosed is more capable of handling catastrophic case failures and over pressure situations caused by bore obstructions or over sized bullets, than are other styles. How much better (if any) the Hybrid types are over the Mauser types I don’t know and wouldn’t venture a guess. | |||
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Vapodog, go to www.saubier.com click on forums and scroll to Ray Hauver's post on his recent blowup. This PF Win. is the worst blowup I have ever seen. Ray was one lucky guy as he was uninjured. | |||
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If someone is mistakenly loading Bullseye in a Magnum rifle case, perhaps the impending explosion is Gods way of cleaning the pool...  | |||
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all modern actions are stronger than the brass. So if the brass gives, it's very very bad if we all have read ackley, you'll find the best action for handling brass failure is ... a SOFT arisaka!!! Remember guys, a SEALED explosion is a BOMB. If you have a totally sealed chamber, assuming your bolt is lapped in, and there's a barrel obstruction, the action will detonate. if it has well planned gas handling, the action is design to breach the case and shunt the gas, assuming the gas can not go forward. the mauser, with a C ring, puts the gas out the righthand side of the action, mostly away from the shooter, as Paul lost an EYE to a ruptured case. jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I'm with Jeffe... I prefer well controlled failure/venting to an attempt at containing the pressure. For a picture, look no farther than your 25th anniversary Sierra manuals. The reloading section has a picture of a push feed .270 Winchester after a case of pistol powder went through it. The piece count is pretty high! Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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Eddie, thanks for the link....in fact I too, owned one of those winchesters in .220 Swift....the problem causing the recall was Schneider's fault in the very huge chamfer they included on the barrel...see here..  This chamfer is the cause of the ruptured case ahead of the bolt face and don't take much imagination to understand that it would release gas into the receiver ring. the net result is as follows.   /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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jeffe, No bolt action rifle that I am aware of has a “sealed†chamber. You can lap the lugs all day long and that will never “seal†the chamber. If you will recall awhile back one of the moderators posted a picture of his Remington 700 bolt nose after a catastrophic failure and all he felt was a slight “puff†of air on his cheek (his exact words). The bolt nose had a chunk out of it, but the receiver was not damaged at all. | |||
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I'm no expert at deciding-where-gas-goes, but my M70 Classic seems to have done it pretty well. In addition to the vent hole in the bolt handle side of the receiver, the vent holes in the bolt direct gas into the magazine, and it also has a Mauser-like flange on the rear of the bridge's left raceway to deflect any gas that makes it that far. Not "three rings of steel," but enough defense in depth to satisfy me. Jaywalker | |||
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Hi Vapodog. I was just down our basement, where i found some very interesting stuf, from blow up tests performed in the sixties the remaining clearly shows that if you have no place og the gas to leak to , then the preasure on some calibers jyst rise, until the chamber swells up and split the reciever. On the 3 actions i found, i can guaranty you that the gas didnt leak, because the casehead vas totally enclosed, and the reciever was not exposed to direct gaspreasure on any significant area. All 3 actions were rearlocking actoins, 2 with reciever outer diameter of 34mm = 1.34" 1 with reciever outerdiameter of 40mm = 1.57" All 3 actions are pushfeed, an is split like a banana. all were deliberatly charged with extra bullets in the barrel, and fastburning shotgunpowder. I can take pictures, but i dont know how to post them. A few years ago we did several tests on a new action: Fatbolt, 3 frontlugs that locked directly in barrel, a small gap betwen bolt and barrel, also equipped with 2 4mm gasescape holes in reciever. those actions was exposed to several loads so heavy that the casehead ruptured, stamping brass down in plungerhole. The only type of damage we could cause, vas brass in all gaps, and blown out magasines, and in 1 case a split stock. All actions was posible to opne by hand afterwards, and was tested several times, without any sighns of sever damages. Those actions was designed trying to create some type of safetyvalve, thereby acting in a predictable way, when exposed to extreem loads | |||
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I agree that no bolt, action, barrel form an airtight seal steel to steel. However if I have a major failure I would much prefer some major vent holes and leakage vs just gas leaking around the front of the bolt. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Paul, I agree and that's really what I meant ... it's pretty esoteric, but yea, I would rather have the gasses blow up the stock and vent away than the action detonating. jeffe #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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please use this link to guide you in posting photos /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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All the pictures we are seeing of receivers split open are ones having major vent holes and large areas where leakage can occur. What caused those failures if this is truly the solution for the problem? Or, more to the point, IS there ANY practical “solution†for a massively overloaded cartridge being fired in a rifle that is capable of being held by a normal human being of normal strength? | |||
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Rick best way to handle it is not having to handle it. You build it stronger there will be some nut come along and try and get that extra 5fps and still blow it up. Years ago in some AI pressure testing I found I often needed to get to 75,000=/- to blow a primer. Don't even want to think of the pressure to blow an action. I can see no reason to load past the standard pressures. Depending on the case going up 63,000 to 73,000 would often only give 75-100fps. I decided long ago that extra velocity came at too high a potential cost. If I truly need that extra 100fps(can't see why I would) then I grab a bigger cased rifle. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Rick by and parge I think we are seeing the "practical solution" at work. Direct the explosion away from the user and to heck with saving the rifle. It looks ugly, but we see quite a few really ugly rifles here and mostly they are accompanied by a note that the user was slightly injured. Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
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I agree 100% with what you say here...it's so true and one don't need a degree in physics to see this. However the things blowing up actions aren't folks trying to milk out these last few feet/sec...it's those making serious errors that any of us can make.....like firing a 308 round in a 25-06 barrel.....ever shoot prairie dogs with guys using these rounds?...My brother accidently set off a 223 round (mine) in his M-70 PF 22-250....the case burst and he got some gas in the face.....but since he was wearing shooting glasses he was not injured.....and I installed a new extractor and all was fixed. These accidents are not the result of idiots at the reloading bench...they are things that can happen to any of us.....believe it or not. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Doesn't that make the .223 a rim fire? How did he get that one to feed?
If it wasn't the fault of the idiot at the reloading bench, then it was more than likely the idiot at the trigger. The way to prevent the "chambered the wrong ammo" type incident, is to examine your ammo before heading into the field, or at the very least, as you are loading the magazine. I know, in this world of fast food, fast cars and fast women, it's an awful lot to ask... | |||
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I don't know that you can make a rifle or anything safe from an idiot at the bench, trigger of behind the wheel. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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Are you saying that this wasn't true? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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You and Jeffe read alike. I said "Doesn't that make the .223 a rim fire?" and then I asked "How did he get that one to feed?" no where does that say that I thought it was untrue. I beleive it! | |||
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I assure you that it's totally true.....that he did manage to fire a .223 (center fire) in his M-70 PF 22-250.....as strange as it sounds. Excuse me now.....I'm off to do some prairie dog shooting with friends. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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You don't have to convince me, I can almost picture you handing him the .223 round. | |||
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Well.....want to go "dog" shooting with me? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Sure! | |||
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Moderator |
I believe you are talking about my 700 here. If you remember the thread, it was dealing with sako extractors. My gun did not experience any catastrophic failure, it blew a primer and some of the retaining lip that holds the extractor got messed up. NOWHERE was any sort of catastrophic failure involved! The gun has had 743 rounds though it since then and still shoots fine. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Hey Rick I just screwed up, I apologize. I meant to quote you and I accidently edited your post, then tried to fix and deleted it. Here is your post: Originally posted by Rick 0311: Mark, I guess we have different definitions of what constitutes catastrophic. The picture you posted back then showed that a portion of the bolt nose had been completely sheared off, which to me is a bit more than just “messed up.†I was complementing the design of your rifle, not demeaning it. Rick 0311 for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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And here is my reply, and a lesson that I should not be posting stuff at 3 AM..... Originally posted by Rick 0311: Mark, I guess we have different definitions of what constitutes catastrophic. The picture you posted back then showed that a portion of the bolt nose had been completely sheared off, which to me is a bit more than just “messed up.†I was complementing the design of your rifle, not demeaning it. Rick 0311 Rick, I'll agree we do seem to have different definitions, and in addition we also seem to differ whether or not having some of the lip for holding in the extractor broken off constitutes having "..a portion of the bolt nose had been completely sheared off" An awful lot of "catastrophic" damage to be caused by just a blown primer, don't you think? for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Mark, Re-post the pictures of your bolt along with your own description of how your hot handloads blew two primers and bulged the cases. The first one that you ignored and the second one that put your rifle out of service with a portion of the bolt nose having decided to remove itself and the extractor and head for parts unknown. Again, I was using that incident as an example of the overall strength and safeness of Remington 700 receivers, and your statement that after having the bolt nose repaired the rifle is shooting fine seems to confirm that. I’m not sure why you are taking such offense to this since I in no way was insulting either you or your rifle. | |||
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A lot don't use the mag for varmints/target. Just single load direct to the chamber. And some of us are only idiots for a second or so. Even i'm not perfect.  | |||
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Here is the link to the thread in question, it was easier to use the search function than to write a description. https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../765103652#765103652 Unfortunately the pics are gone, I was hosting them on my hunt101 account and I lost all my pics posted there when their site went down a while ago, so for now you'll just have to interpret them by description I had posted next to each. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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Im just wondering. Does anybody know how a Howa action will perform with a blown case? | |||
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Yes It is basicaly of the type who would make a controlled casepuncture, where gass will leack betven bolt and barrel, and blow backwards, along raceways, and also down in the magasin, whitch swells up, and splinter the stock. Im my opinion ther are not enough shields to protect your face from gass and particles. Werry unpleasant, but not leathal. Dont ever use this poorley protected systems(not onley Howa) shooting lefthand, with a right hand actions, as there is no gasleack protection in this direction at all. Atleast not without wearing safetyglasses. But the action it self vill not be severely damaged | |||
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