Hello Folks

Inquiring minds would like to know (either opinion, experience or definative reference) if it is safe to carry a striker fired rifle with a round chambered, bolt closed but uncocked WHERE the rifle has a shrouded cocking piece.

In other words, is the tension remaining in the mainspring when resting on the primer sufficient in some circumstances to fire the rifle without a physical blow to the end of the cocking piece ??

Cheers - Foster

How do you "uncock" it with a round in the chamber?

quote:

Inquiring minds would like to know (either opinion, experience or definative reference) if it is safe to carry a striker fired rifle with a round chambered, bolt closed but uncocked WHERE the rifle has a shrouded cocking piece.

My short answer – ‘Not PYGMALION likely!!!’

Some decades back, when the NZ Mountain Safety Council was only just getting started, we sometimes had groups such as Scouts out to our NZDA range for firearms safety and marksmanship instruction. What you are asking about is something we always warned them to NEVER do. To prove the point, an instructor would put a blank cartridge into the chamber of a club 303, and close the bolt with the trigger pulled back, lowering the striker. (does THAT answer your question, Kurt?) Then he would thump the butt down on a hard surface, and the rifle would fire. (with nothing ever touching the exposed striker head) This demo did, of course, have to be done outside …

Maybe blanks use softer, easier-to set-off primers than normal ammo, I don’t know about that, but it’s not the sort of thing I have ever felt inclined to experiment with too much. I never have and never will go around with the striker lowered on a chambered, live cartridge myself. Over my years as an MSC firearms instructor, I have always warned others not to, either. It’s dangerous and senseless - there are much safer and more effective ways to carry a rifle, and get it into action quickly.

Perhaps the ones you should ask would be those in your hunting party. I would think, in the time it takes to bring the rifle to your shoulder and get a decent sight picture, you could easily and safely cycle a round from the chamber.

I wouldn't. It takes no longer for me to cycle the bolt and chamber a new round than it does to cycle to recock. Better safe than sorry.

A good friend of mine told me that a hunter he knows, used to carry his M98 sporter "uncocked", with a round in the chamber; he pulled the trigger while slowly closing the bolt. His idea was to have the rifle almost ready to shoot. In case, he only had to lift and lower the bolt handle. Once he fell, and the bore muzzle heavily hit a stone. Inertia has been sufficient to ignite the primer; the rifle has been throwed several meter back and the unwise hunter has been slightly injured.

okay.. ven in a springifeld, this isn't safe or a great idea.. the springfield is a 2 piece firing pin, which disconnects...

on nearly EVERY other round, you now have a firing pin resting on a primer, including the 1936 mexican mauser

don't do it

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Tentman:
Hello Folks

Inquiring minds would like to know (either opinion, experience or definative reference) if it is safe to carry a striker fired rifle with a round chambered, bolt closed but uncocked WHERE the rifle has a shrouded cocking piece.

In other words, is the tension remaining in the mainspring when resting on the primer sufficient in some circumstances to fire the rifle without a physical blow to the end of the cocking piece ??

Cheers - Foster

It could fire if struck a sufficient blow toward the breech, if struck on the muzzle.

Even the very safe M1911A1 pistol can fire a round when chamber loaded and uncocked, if dropped on the muzzle. In this case, the striker is not even in contact with the primer when dropped.

IMO, it is NEVER SAFE to carry ANY weapon with the striker resting on a primer!! Especially if there is no mechanical lock to prevent the striker from moving forward into the primer.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
okay.. ven in a springifeld, this isn't safe or a great idea.. the springfield is a 2 piece firing pin, which disconnects...

on nearly EVERY other round, you now have a firing pin resting on a primer, including the 1936 mexican mauser

don't do it

jeffe

What??? I got the 2 piece firing pin reference, but I am at a loss as to what you mean with the rest of it. Would you please elaborate?

Me too Jeffeeoso

I should probably let Jeffe speak for himself. What I read between the lines was "Even (missing the e) on the springfield which has a two piece firing pin it isn't a good idea to leave a round in the chamber with the rifle uncocked. On nearly every other "rifle" you have a one piece firing pin with the pin resting "actually being pushed into" the primer.

The pin will protrude and push with quite a bit of force into the primer. Ever try and push the firing pin back with your finger tip.

Thanks Ramrod...
that's it. RIFLE, not round.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

Ever try and push the firing pin back with your finger tip.

No, can't say I have.

quote:

No, can't say I have.

Just check two cases in one of my MKXs. The spring will supply enough pressure for the pin to form a dimple on both a Rem and CCI primer.

The later models of the Thompson SMG and the Grease Guns did not have firing pins. They had a dimple on the nose of the bolt. Just like most bolt action bolts when un-cocked. I know it's not the same thing but . . .

Ray

A round in the chamber without a safety is always a hazard, it only takes a sudden impact to potentially fire the rifle. As was previously stated, ask your hunting party!
bigbull

Imho, it's the hight of madness. As stated already, most bolts have quite a heavy spring pushing the fireing pin onto the primer.
My nerves don't cater for that sort of suspense.

Even though I've never heard of one going off in that position, I have heard of them going off when someone got lax and pulled the trigger AFTER closing the bolt. Scares the crap out of 'em.

I don't use a sling, so I find it handy to have a round in the chamber with the bolt unlocked.
It has to be pushed in a little and then down.

Here's the long thought for those less familiar with the inner workings of a modern bolt action rifle.

In the condition described, cartridge chambered and trigger pulled during SLOW bolt closure, the firing pin gently comes down and rests on the primer. We already have examples above showing that even gentle lowering of the bolt handle will dimple the primer. Now the firing pin is resting under ONLY SPRING TENSION (very important, firing pin is otherwise free to move) against the primer of a live round.

Drop the rifle or strike it hard enough on the end (butt or muzzle) and this will happen:

Muzzle strike-firing pin intertia transfers directly to the primer, crushing it further and probably detonating it.

Butt strike-firing pin inertia pulls firing pin back slightly, compressing the firing pin spring. Spring returns firing pin to primer just like it is supposed to, just like a normal trigger pull, firing the primer.

To give you an idea of how easy this is, imagine this: Old small ring Mausers with cock on close bolts allow the firing pin to come forward partially upon opening the bolt. I know from experience that if one of these has a poorly fitted firing pin with excessive length sticking out of the end of the bolt, just a firm cycling of the bolt to eject a live round can detonate it. My ears rang for days from that little educational experience.

quote:

okay.. ven in a springifeld, this isn't safe or a great idea.. the springfield is a 2 piece firing pin, which disconnects

Huh? The two pieces of a Springfield firing pin do not become disconnected from each other any time during cocking or firing. They operate the same as a one piece. The two pieces fit together in a "tongue and groove" kind of way that is captured inside the spring and cannot become "disconnected". You are correct in stating that it is still unsafe in a Springfield, however.

Fast Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Tentman:
Hello Folks

Inquiring minds would like to know (either opinion, experience or definative reference) if it is safe to carry a striker fired rifle with a round chambered, bolt closed but uncocked WHERE the rifle has a shrouded cocking piece.

Cheers - Foster

Strange but I've never carried a rifle that way nor has anyone I know. Much of the time we carry the rifle with the chamber empty and the magazine full and the bolt closed as it takes very little time to work the bolt one cycle.

We usually drive wooded areas for deer and the posters have the chamber loaded and the gun on safe.....after all...they're just standing there. Drivers almost always are carrying empty chambers.

One year I had a FN Mauser that had a problem with the side sliding safety which didn't move to the safe position. (now fixed!!) but the entire season I carried that gun's chamber empty and still had no problem getting bambi in the freezer.

In the net result.....I can't think of a reason to carry a rifle as you suggest.....loaded and uncocked....If one has a good M-70 style of safety or original '98 style, I'd rather carry the chamber loaded and the safety on and locked.

While on Safari my PH insisted the gun be unloaded in the chamber at all times until he personally instructed his clients to chamber a round. This was only when a shot was close at hand or he put one on a point to watch an area. This caused no trouble at all.

I just don't see a reason to carry as you have illustrated. As far as safety I'd rate it just slightly better than the time honored practice of chambering a round in a lever gun and then wrapping the thumb around the hammer, pulling the trigger and letting the hammer to the half cock position. I've always wondered how many accidental discharges this has caused each year.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


While on Safari my PH insisted the gun be unloaded in the chamber at all times until he personally instructed his clients to chamber a round. This was only when a shot was close at hand or he put one on a point to watch an area. This caused no trouble at all.

Vapodog,

FWIW, although I agree with the above in non DG areas, this isn't a good idea where there are DG. For example when Myles McCallum and I were charged in Zim last year, and he shot a charging cow elephant at 2-3 meters while running as fast as he could!

Potential situations like the above is one of the reasons why I had my 375H&H M98 3 position safety switched to a 2 pos. safety. It's either on or off, with no inbetween.

Which is needed for dumbies such as myself.

So there are times and places where "cocked and locked" is the way to go. IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by ErikD:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


While on Safari my PH insisted the gun be unloaded in the chamber at all times until he personally instructed his clients to chamber a round. This was only when a shot was close at hand or he put one on a point to watch an area. This caused no trouble at all.

Vapodog,

FWIW, although I agree with the above in non DG areas, this isn't a good idea where there are DG. For example when Myles McCallum and I were charged in Zim last year, and he shot a charging cow elephant at 2-3 meters while running as fast as he could!

Potential situations like the above is one of the reasons why I changed my 375H&H M98 3 position safety switched to a 2 pos. safety. It's either on or off, with no inbetween.

Which is needed for dumbies such as myself.

So there are times and places where "cocked and locked" is the way to go. IMO.

ErikD
I've never hunted DG and as you suggest the rules just might be different in this event.

I can assure you that if I was seeing fresh Elephant shit on the ground I just might be very tempted to have a round chambered whether the PH said to or not.....He and I could discuss it around a campfire afterwards.......after he's cooled off with a few single malts!!!

Damn Vapodog. Now that you qouted me, I noticed the poor grammar in my post. And now it's too late to change it...

"Round Chambered, uncocked - Safe or not ??"

NOT!

quote:

ErikD
I've never hunted DG and as you suggest the rules just might be different in this event.

I can assure you that if I was seeing fresh Elephant shit on the ground I just might be very tempted to have a round chambered whether the PH said to or not.....He and I could discuss it around a campfire afterwards.......after he's cooled off with a few single malts!!!

But still, this would NOT be with a round in the chamber AND THE STRIKER DOWN RESTING ON THE PRIMER!! It would be cocked.........